Primary Causal Agent ?

[Stephen Wiley]

Armillaria ostoyae  since I know you like pics

Thought I would include this one.

Any of you have others that amaze you or need id. 

[mike p]

so youguys got any idea what tree this crotch is from
it dont smell like oak bark is a little pailer than oak

i never got to see the leaves
i wonder if its box elder but i dont know
white wood for most part
was growing in a creek that is dry most of the year the roots got uncovred in a rain storm

[Kirk Allen]

Looks like Oak to me.

[Stephen Wiley]

By the bark in the 1st pic..........Bur Oak

Do you have any closer pics?  Or pics of the ends?

See your in Missouri........if you can go back to where the tree was harvested you may find some old leaves.  Take a look at this site, for further id.

http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/...ndE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm

[Kirk Allen]

Rest assured its not Box Elder.

If you can enlarge the pics that might help.  If you cant get them sized right email them to me and I will see what I can do.

[mike p]

it doesent smell like oak
its lighter than oak
its whiter than any other oak i have sawn

[Kirk Allen]

Could be Ash but hard to tell from the bark.

[Stephen Wiley]

Bark can be deceiving..........i.e.; when I first looked at the first pic my mind said Locust.  Than Cottowood..... than Bur Oak.

Problem remains - a closer view of the wood in order to depict ray cell and axial patterns would help.

[Kirk Allen]

Mike, See if this link helps any.  Lots of pics to compare.
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/s...forestry/hough/index.html

[mike p]

im not familar with cotton wood its a possible there was some cottonwood here but i was told it was all cut down before we came here in 1987
if it was ash it should of had the worm holes like all the other ash i got
not bur oak as im familuar with that one
this is light weight cotton wood is a good guess maybe?

[Kirk Allen]

I would say its not cottonwood based on the grain pattern.  I am banking my money on an oak, but not sure which one but ash is still a possibility.  the worm holes may come later . 

[Stephen Wiley]

Bark is similar to Eastern Cottonwood
wood coloration is similar to Cottonwood

Still either need closer pics of wood or possibly leaf material for better ID. Is that possible Mike?
 
http://plants.usda.gov/ja...imageID=pode3_028_avp.tif

[mike p]

well i got this tree after it fell from storm didnt get to see the leaves & ti was starting to spalt so been down awhile

[Stevem]

If it was cotton wood I'd think you could dent it with your finger nail.  Not so with oak.

[Kirk Allen]

Burn a piece of it and smell the smoke.  If it smells like urine, its cottonwood

[mike p]

i havent tryed that yet

[mike p]

a cut of off it

[Kirk Allen]

Ash!

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Looks like our Ash bark, out here on the Central Left Coast.

[Kirk Allen]

I would bet dinner on it!  I have cut a boat load of that stuff and its hard!

[Stephen Wiley]

See bark is NOT always a good identifier........this bark pattern is similar to Ash & White Oak. (definately NOT Bur Oak)

In Ash ray cells are not visible (without use of hand lens) whereas with White Oak they are. Ash & White Oak are very similar in bark appearance; both are ring porous; both are abundant w/tyloses; Oak is slightly harder in density. The distinguishing feature (visibly) to separate the two is larger rays in Oak.

The 1st pic clearly has ray cells visible. = Quercus alba Whlite Oak

[Kirk Allen]

I dont know what kind of white oak your talking about on the west coast but the bark on our midwest white oaks are definatly not similar.  Being that he is in MO I will buy your dinner if that is white oak.

[Stephen Wiley]

The White Oak here is not similar at all.

When I first looked at the above pics my mind said postively Ash.   I am inclined to agree with you on Ash as it looks similar to Ash out here.

I made by above reference from the similarity to the bark pic'd in the Missouri site (White Oak) that I referenced earlier on this thread. 

But ever learning, and not having the advantage of actually seeing.... I researched some of the dendrology sites (for that part of the country) which referenced that Ash and White Oak are often mistaken based upon bark similarities. The appearance of ray cells in the above pic lead me to the conclusion (after I enlarged pic) based upon cell characteristics. 

It is also possible that the sites I visited and have referenced may have wrong pics of these species. 

[Kirk Allen]

One of the dead giveaways for me is the worm holes in the sap wood.  White oak rarely has that around here.  Ash has it in less than 6 months of being on the ground. 

[Stephen Wiley]

Many borers & sawflies do attack, Ash.

Taking into account the incipient staining, length of time this piece is down.

ASH Fraxinus spp.

[Kirk Allen]

Stephen, what is a sawflie?  I have not heard that term before.  Is that similar to a Powder Post beatle?

[Stephen Wiley]

No, powder post attack downed wood and are eating and nesting in the wood.

Sawflies are one of the many insects that are generally eat foliage (can totally defoliate or skelontize) . They go through several stages of growth and some of them will bore into the trunk, branches. These boring sites can look like bark borer damage.

Here is a site showing the Oak Shoot Sawfly which is known to bore.

http://www.forestryimages...detail.cfm?imgnum=3066095

[Kirk Allen]

Wow   I've never seen anything like that around here.  Are they common throughout the US?

[Stephen Wiley]

Kirk, this will be a long response.  I am not certain if all 50 states have sawflies. Some sawflies have been imported and have overtaken from the east coast along the northern & central states to the Pacific. Many sawfly adults are not often observed.  A tree being defoliated by the worm/caterpillar larvae may be found by a forester/arborist. Simply put many people do not notice tree health impacts up close, until the tree is dead or in serious decline.

Taken from USDA Report 1998 – more recent surveys encompass Illinois counties.

Scarlet oak sawfly, Caliroa quercuscoccineae

Region 9/Northeastern Area: Ohio, West Virginia
Hosts: Black oak, pin oak, red oak, scarlet oak, white oak
The scarlet oak sawfly infestation contined for the second year in southeast Ohio and southwest West Virginia. An area encompassing 217,635 acres was defoliated on the Wayne National Forest in Ohio, and an addtional 76,791 acres was defoliated on adjacent and surrounding private lands. In West Virginia, 185,638 acres was defoliated in Mason, Cabell, Putnam, and Wayne Counties. This area also experienced heavy locust leafminer damage.

Another site showing geographical saturation by the Scarlet Oak Sawfly.   

http://forestry.about.com...y/silvics/blsilquepal.htm

European Sawfly site for Illinois   

http://urbanext.illinois....w/europeanpinesawfly.html

USDA Pest Alert:

http://na.fs.fed.us/spfo/...pest_al/sawfly/sawfly.htm

[Kirk Allen]

Great info!  Thanks for the links! 

[Stephen Wiley]