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Author Topic: about band speed  (Read 97793 times)

Offline lauztuvass

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about band speed
« on: February 11, 2012, 09:04:51 AM »
Hi , i am new here and my elglish language is not good. i was looking information about bands sawmill and came in this forum.
So I have made band sawmill. it works but not so fast like i want. i have some questios:
what speed must be for band m/s? in my project this speed is about 33m/s. in some manufacturers website i found that this speed is about 27m/s, but i dont belyve that bad is so slow.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:57:06 AM »
Try this link.  Its a calculator that takes all the factors involved and provides a reccomendation.

http://www.woodproductsonlineexpo.com/content.php/677/2160/wood_products_bandmill_calculator.html

I have to search but I was thinking the Woodmizer mills are running around 5000 SFPM (surface feet per minute) 
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 11:14:59 AM »
 Welcome to the forum.  Where are you located in the world ?
 Kirks 5000 SFPM is close enough. I was thinking 5300 ?? Anyway, divide that 5000 by 60 (seconds per minute, and then, divide that by 3 (Feet per yard, close to a meter, and it comes out at 27, which you already found.

 Maybe some more info about your mill could help determine the cutting speed.

 Are you talking how fast you make the cut, as in, inches per second down the log ?
 
What species of log ?  Hardwood or softwood ?
 
What diameter, width of boards ?

 Are the logs frozen or not ?

 What pitch of blade teeth 7/8" tip to tip of teeth ?? Using blade lube ?

 Blade roller guides or solid stock ?

 Have any photos to show us ?

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 01:19:44 PM »
Harold are you implying there is more to this milling thing than just cutting up logs??  :D :D :D ;)
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 02:13:35 PM »
 I'd reckon, Kirk.  I haven't sawn one in so long, I ferget which end to start on.  :-\ :-\

 I just remember how much help I needed, when we were building our bandmill. MANY people said "you can't build a bandmill that will work well".  You and Don saw it working, with a one man operation. ED never got to saw very much. He was always looking out for the old man, so he would not get hurt. He had a lot to learn, to run that mill, efficiently.  ;D ;D

 Shoot fire, he should be down here rat now. I'm logging some 20' logs down a hill, across a creek, then up the other side of the next hill. All with a rope, a snatch block, a 1/4" cable, a 30' tow strap, and a hand crank winch I just threw together in 2 1/2 days. Be glad when I can get the Jip close enough to hook on with a 50' cable.  ::) ::) :D :D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 10:41:13 AM »
Welcome to the forum.  Where are you located in the world ?
 Kirks 5000 SFPM is close enough. I was thinking 5300 ?? Anyway, divide that 5000 by 60 (seconds per minute, and then, divide that by 3 (Feet per yard, close to a meter, and it comes out at 27, which you already found.

 Maybe some more info about your mill could help determine the cutting speed.

 Are you talking how fast you make the cut, as in, inches per second down the log ?
 
What species of log ?  Hardwood or softwood ?
 
What diameter, width of boards ?

 Are the logs frozen or not ?

 What pitch of blade teeth 7/8" tip to tip of teeth ?? Using blade lube ?

 Blade roller guides or solid stock
 Have any photos to show us ?
thanks, for advertise. I am from Lithuania. to day i dont have my  mill photo but after one week i will make some. Some info i can give ( not all remember)?
motor ir electric 7,5kw, ~1450 speed.
main wheels demeter is about 56cm bur weight is big, about 30kg by one.
logs is from spruce, not frozen,
Blade roller guides is like in this photo, diameter 50mm

blade : thickness= 1mm,  width=35mm, tooth spacing 22mm, tip of teeth like photo, blade speed abouth 33m/s


bord about 20cm width, so  how fast i can the cut?
I apologize that i wrote in metric system.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:45:48 PM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 06:51:31 PM »
 Good info.  ;D

 OK. Blade is pretty close to what most of us use. The Tip to Tip Mm = 3/4" spacing. We pretty much all use 7/8. Might make a small difference in cut speed.

 The 7.5KW = 10 HP. That's pretty low, considering most of the mills use 20HP or higher. Some go over 100 HP.

 I'm not familiar with Spruce. Searching for info reveals, Spruce = difficult to saw. Don't know if that's tough wood, hard wood, or twisty wood ??

 Guide rollers look good.

 Is the outside guide roller (farthest away from the drive wheel) adjustable ?? Wood Mizers and some other models, including the oversized Wood Mizer we built, all have an adjustable guide. You need to keep that guide roller as close to the log-cant, as possible.

 Do you have any down pressure on the blade ?? Most of us use 1/8 inch (3-4 mm) down pressure. THat also helps control the blade.

 Are the logs fresh cut ?? On Pine, especially, the log bleeds sap which covers the ends of the logs. After a week or 2, that will start to harden, and, take the sharp right off the tips of the blades. How about dirt and small pieces of rocks stuck in the bark, from dragging the logs ??

 We use Munksforsager Blades, stock made in Sweden. Have sawn very hard, moderately hard, soft, stringy, and soaking wet, sinker logs. WILL NOT use any other brand.

 Other than what you posted, very sharp teeth and adjustable guide, and good lube, sounds like you make most of the stuff covered. Can you swap from a Spruce to anything else, while sawing, just to see if the Spruce IS the problem. I think it might be.

 Good luck and report back, if you get it figured out, so others can learn from your experience.

Offline Stevem

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 09:00:43 PM »

Reference spruce cutting.  Don't know about other types but the knots in Sitka Spruce draw sparks from a chain saw and make a circle blade (Mobile Dimension) ride up.  The wood itself is pretty easy to cut until you hit the knots.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 04:03:35 AM »

 Does not sound like good stuff to saw, if you have many knots.

 Old growth, "fat litered" SYP has hard knots, also. Makes for tricky sawing.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 10:19:30 AM »
So, Harold when i wach to your replys, i think that i am in the right way. My most big proble is: then i am cuting the log in small speed, the bord is looks good straight, but then i rised speed, bords became wavy, twisting. thats is most important problem for me. engine power is enought for me. Also problem is that i dont know how much to stretch a band. Next week i share some photo and will be much esy to say what i want . i'm not so good in eglish language  :-\
Spruce is almost like a pine. in our contry pine is used to buldings, which is resisable to water much beter like buldings from spruce.So pine is used in outdors buldings , spruse for indor works.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 01:10:42 PM »
 Did you use "V" belt pulleys as band wheels, or, automotive type trailer wheels ??

 On our mill, we use a long bolt that pulls the adjuster tight. It's a 5/8 915-16 mm) dia bolt. we tighten it with a 3/8" drive socket and ratchet. Pull until it stops moving, then a small jerk to be sure. Blades on WoodMizers are tensioned at 20,000 pounds of force, or so.

 There is another technique on another forum, that showed how to use a caliper. Clamp it to the blade somehow, then watch the stretch as you tighten the adjustment.

 I just don't believe they have to be all that tight. You should be able to make the engine, "Grunt" from the load as you cut. We try to keep the motor running at that grunting sound. IF the blade is slipping at all, you can't make the motor pull down RPM's (Grunt). On our mill, we used trailer wheels and tires. I believe that is the main reason we never break blades. We wear them down, so the gullets hit the rollers as a high speed ticking sound. A 1¼ wide blade is what we use.
 The hardest wood "Bisofia" Dark Red color, we cut, made the blade chatter and we had to go slower than normal. Still cut flat and true. Customer was always impressed with our cutting.

 Check around over in Europe for those Munks blades. Try to get one with 7/8 tip to tip (pitch), and see if that makes any difference. We also sharpened our own blades. If I knew we had HARD wood, harder than normal, I would cut the tooth face angle back from 10° to 7°. I did help. WoodMizer sells a 4° blade for HARD wood.  Never had to go back that far. The Swedish Steel just seems to make the difference.

  Don't see the photos I tried to post ???  AHhhhh, there they are.  8)

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 11:52:05 AM »
I am using "V" pulles as wheels but  they are bad becauce they have too much weght and are curved. so ypur system is abouth like this?

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
 Yes, our mill is like that. Make that bolt go on the other side, so you screw it in to tension the band.

 Bolt that is on the outside of that 2 bolt tensioner, is used to set blade alignment. When we tighten the inside bolt, that is the blade tension bolt. IF we tighten the inside bolt with a larger wrench, it will cause the wheel to move left end out, right end in, looking at that photo, so the blade tracks a little more toward the blade roller guide flange. That is how we check everything regarding the blade running properly. It only takes a little bit of movement to make the blade ride differently on the mill wheels.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:58:35 PM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 12:01:28 PM »
you used trailer wheels. how they ? good or not? properly? can you told that is good and what is bad?

In my case is bads fings like good. i bring v puleys from this tractor( i dont have enougt money to buoght wheels which a special made for bandmills.)

So one wheel have 3 "V" belts and weight is about 30kg. wheel is not properly, it have vibration.

 now i am looking new wheels. and i am not sure what to choose.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 12:29:24 PM by lauztuvass »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 12:34:33 PM »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »
 In Europe, there should be LOTS of 12" Opel cars. The front spindles are mounted to the axle with 4 bolts attaching with 2 flanges face to face. 12" wheels should give you 19-20" (483 mm-508 mm). We used 13" wheels and got 600mm. diameter.  The tires are not as solid as V-belts, so, they give a little. That helps prevent blade breakage.  The spindle mounts would make an easy mounting set up.

 We have found NO problems with the trailer tires. They were bought new, so, the tread is raised and, the teeth never touch the rubber, unless things get really wild inside those covers.

 We have sawn 904 mm wide table slabs with our mill, all day long.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 12:41:10 AM »
Nice... I was cuting about 60cm diameter log. And is over- biger i cant cut. Maybe you cat tell how long one band can cut? (until breaks it). In my mills one band  stand about 15 cubic meters log( only that amount of logs i cant cut with one band).
How much logs you can cut to bords in one day?(8 ours)

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 07:56:27 AM »
 60cm is a nice size log. Are you limited to width of blade guides, or, is that the limit your blade can cut, decently ??

 It is difficult to tell how long 1 band can cut. When I sharpen, I take off the very little amount of metal I can, to get that really sharp blade. I NEVER take a heavy cut. It will burn the steel and ruin the temper.
 Grinding a 1¼" blade down to ride on the roller teeth, so the gullets sound like a stripped gear, I never cared how long it had been used.

 IF you take off the blade, as soon as it starts getting dull, you will have much cleaner cut lumber and, more blade longevity. I would guess a blade would last 10,000 bd/ft ?? Sounds like a very high guess, but, remember I suggested the Munksforsager blades ??  They DO last a very long time.

 Blade lasting per day, is an entirely different thing. We have sawn all day, 6-7 hours actually cutting logs, with 1 blade. Logs were VERY clean, and were Southern Yellow Pine. Typical construction lumber.
 We once tried to saw a Beach (think ocean) log, and made 1 cut per sharpen. It was loaded with worm holes (teredos), and full of fine white sand. Customer wanted it done, so, I priced it very high, and made 4 cuts. He quit, not me.  ;D ;D  Photo below.

 MOST of our sawing was sunken logs from the river. they were loaded with fine white sand, and, we had a hose to wash logs down. That's partly why I can't say how many bd/ft per 8 hours.  We have sawn over 3500 bd/ft per day, loaded on a trailer, mostly natural live edge, for rustic table slabs. My son kept everything going smoothly from the mill onto the trailer, and I would keep logs ready to load, with 1 always sitting on the loader forks, ready to go up on the mill. We had a good system. Figure this to be 2½-3" thick table slabs. bd/ft adds up fast that way. We would start sawing around 7AM and have the trailer loaded and ready to head home by 3PM, same day. We were tired, but, that load would be worth $19,250.00. We could only haul 2000 bd/ft at a time, because the wood was soaking wet from the river, usually.

 Moving logs from the pile to the mill, and turning logs on the mill takes a third as much time as sawing the log, usually.

 We would cut the edges off the boards, 6 boards at a time, and, always 1" lumber. NEVER cut off the edge on the table slabs.  DO NOT be afraid of sawing ugly logs. IF they are YOUR logs, you can make some nice money.

 The last photo is Pecky Cypress in an "S" shape. Log was big but UGLY. We sold all 5 slabs for over $400.00 each. They are 37" (94cm) wide at the widest place and 2" (5.1cm) thick X 6' (183cm) long. 1 customer bough 4 and the last piece went for more than the $400.00 average.  ;) ;D

 Down here, in Costa Rica, all that wood would be "Basura", garbage, throw away.  ::) ::) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:05:10 AM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 09:59:38 AM »
My mill construction dont let cut more then about 60 cm.
Yes, then logs is clean clean is imposible to cut all day with one band. I with one band always cut about 1 cubic meters logs or about 2 ours. then i change it, becauce my bords mades like in picture below:

You have hidraulic logs lifter. It is good. i dont have but i want lif. what pump is in your mill?
big prise is in your contry for this type production like you cut.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:12:03 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 05:21:48 PM »

 The hyd pump is from a Dump system for a farm wagon or small pickup. It came with a reservoir and a valve. Needed a 12V DC motor connected to it.

 If you search in industrial type salvage yards, or on Craigslist in your area, you might find a hydraulic pump for a forklift. I have one of them for the mill I am building down here. You may have to be creative to get 2 way pressure system, so you can run cylinders up and down, under pressure. I also did the log stops as hydraulic, and the roller toe boards, and the 2 plane log clamp. Electric screw thread in-out, hydraulic up-down. Helps a bunch to move logs on the mill if they are heavy after squaring up, and, helps to turn those heavy logs, also.

 Think about what machines use hydraulics and what you can remodel to work for your needs. That Combine in your post should have plenty of Hydraulic stuff, cylinders hoses, valves, pumps, etc.

 Don't kid yourself about the prices. Go on the Internet and search for 1 piece table tops in Europe. There is a guy in Florida, USA, that sells Cypress trunk "rounds", we call 'em "Cookies" because of the shape. He sells them to Europe in a 20 foot container load, and gets prepaid before he ships.  This is a specialty market, so, look around. You may be pleasantly surprised.

 I still think you have trouble from that Spruce. Is it possible to get ANYTHING else to cut, besides Spruce ??

 I know of a guy in Sweden that built a mill and sawed a lot of storm downed trees. I lost contact with him, but, I will try to find him for you to exchange information with.

 Try to find 1 Munks Blade. We used WoodMizer, Lenox, Timberwolf, and another brand, I can't remember.  The Munks blade our machine come to life. The WoodMizer 1½" 7/8 pitch blade works well, also. We used that on old Sinker Southern Yellow Pine. It's TOUGH to cut, also. REAL sappy and a knotty top is a real bear to cut flat. I will put a photo in this post, of that SY Pine board.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 08:40:39 AM »
Nice bords. By the way Lenox and woodmizer is agent in lithuania. but i never tray this firm production.
Now i have some foto.. My mill is a litlle scary.. I never paint it. It is my first mill . I made it like i thought, without plans, witouth advice.  So..
My MILL
 















All materials was about 700 dolars. Not big investition. is buy a new mill , that will be about 7000 dollars and maded in polland(is not good, quality like in china  ;D) . My mill erned allredy more like i pay for materials. Now i am looking for oportunity to upgrade my old mill or build new.  To buy new mill i dont have money so much. So i am thinking what to do. Until now i have a work, so i havent a lot of time for mill, but after two weeks i will be unemployed person. I am looking for opportunity to work fow myself.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 09:04:50 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2012, 09:49:56 AM »
I find some info abouth spruce in english, if some one will be interesting
Timber
 




P. abies wood
Spruce is useful as a building wood, commonly referred to by several different names including North American timber, SPF (spruce, pine, fir) and whitewood. Spruce wood is used for many purposes, ranging from general construction work and crates to highly specialised uses in wooden aircraft, and as a tonewood in many musical instruments, including guitars, mandolins, cellos, violins, and the soundboard at the heart of a piano and the harp. The Wright brothers' first aircraft, the Flyer, was built of spruce.[5]
 
Because this species has no insect or decay resistance qualities after logging, it is generally recommended for construction purposes as indoor use only (ex. indoor drywall framing). Spruce wood, when left outside can not be expected to last more than 12–18 months depending on the type of climate it is exposed to.
 
[edit] Pulpwood
 
Spruce is one of the most important woods for paper uses, as it has long wood fibres which bind together to make strong paper. The fibres are thin walled and collapses to thin bands upon drying. Spruces are commonly used in mechanical pulping as they are easily bleached. Together with northern pines northern spruces are commonly used to make NBSK. Spruces are cultivated over vast areas as pulpwood.
 
[edit] Food and medicine
 
The leaves and branches, or the essential oils, can be used to brew spruce beer[clarification needed]. The tips from the needles can be used to make spruce tip syrup[clarification needed]. Native Americans in New England also used the sap to make a gum which was used for various reasons, and which was the basis of the first commercial production of chewing gum.[6] In survival situations spruce needles can be directly ingested or boiled into a tea.[7] This replaces large amounts of vitamin C. Also, water is stored in a spruce's needles, providing an alternative means of hydration[clarification needed]. Spruce can be used as a preventative measure for scurvy in an environment where meat is the only prominent food source[clarification needed].
 
[edit] Other uses
 
The resin was used in the manufacture of pitch in the past (before the use of petrochemicals); the scientific name Picea is generally thought to be derived from Latin pix, pitch (though other etymologies have been suggested).
 
Native Americans in North America use the thin, pliable roots of some species for weaving baskets and for sewing together pieces of birch bark for canoes. See also Kiidk'yaas for an unusual golden Sitka Spruce sacred to the Haida people.
 
Spruces are also popular ornamental trees in horticulture, admired for their evergreen, symmetrical narrow-conic growth habit. For the same reason, some (particularly Picea abies and P. omorika) are also extensively used as Christmas trees.
 
Spruce branches are also used at Aintree racecourse, Liverpool, to build several of the fences on the Grand National course. It is also used to make sculptures and Christmas trees.

Offline Wudkutter

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 11:03:55 AM »
I built my mill too. Paint doesn't cut wood.  Sharp bands cut wood.  Guides have to be very parallel with the bed rails.  Blades have to be flat and set properly.  Blade speed may be too fast if wood is frozen.  Higher speed makes more heat and the sawdust freezes in the kerf not leaving enough clearance for the blade.  Fast blade speed and slow feed can heat teeth tips, dulling them sooner.  Dull blades will cut wavy.  Go to Cooksaw.com  (link at top of page) Buy videos or see their video on line.  Much good information about sawing straight and fast.  Also make sure band is running on just one belt on your 3 groove pulley also that the teeth don't touch the pulley or belt or guides.
Keep working on it and you WILL get it figured out.   Photos   http://s1109.photobucket.com/home/lslehman/index
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:13:53 PM by Wudkutter »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM »

 Good info from Wudkutter. I have never had the pleasure to saw frozen logs or have sawdust freeze. That could very well be part of your problem.

 First thing I would do is, check everything for proper alignment. Second is, make a strong movable blade guide for the roller guide farthest from the drive wheel.
 We used a windshield wiper motor, without the cam action. We took that off and used the motor shaft with a skateboard wheel machined onto it. That runs on the square solid steel bar, that is mounted in the Diamond position, that is, NOT flat side down, but an EDGE down. Let me see if I have a photo.

 The motor on there now is, from a powered wheelchair. The square bar rides on the 4 roller wheels I made, with bearings. They are all adjustable, so the roller runs exactly parallel with the log bunks.  Other one didn't stand up to the weather. You need to keep that roller as close to the log-cant as possible, to help control the blade.

 Mill is pretty heavy built, but, if it's not shaky, it should cut good lumber.

Offline Wudkutter

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 12:41:54 PM »
Having trouble getting photos to load so I added link to my photo sight on last post. 
I just used 19" V pulley for band wheels.  Good for smaller machine.  10HP electric motor is about equal to 15HP engine in torque(1 1/2 X electric)  Vibration in band wheels can cause blade to break early.  Also profile grinding removes micro fractures that lead to band breaking early.