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Author Topic: about band speed  (Read 98021 times)

Offline lauztuvass

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about band speed
« on: February 11, 2012, 09:04:51 AM »
Hi , i am new here and my elglish language is not good. i was looking information about bands sawmill and came in this forum.
So I have made band sawmill. it works but not so fast like i want. i have some questios:
what speed must be for band m/s? in my project this speed is about 33m/s. in some manufacturers website i found that this speed is about 27m/s, but i dont belyve that bad is so slow.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:57:06 AM »
Try this link.  Its a calculator that takes all the factors involved and provides a reccomendation.

http://www.woodproductsonlineexpo.com/content.php/677/2160/wood_products_bandmill_calculator.html

I have to search but I was thinking the Woodmizer mills are running around 5000 SFPM (surface feet per minute) 
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 11:14:59 AM »
 Welcome to the forum.  Where are you located in the world ?
 Kirks 5000 SFPM is close enough. I was thinking 5300 ?? Anyway, divide that 5000 by 60 (seconds per minute, and then, divide that by 3 (Feet per yard, close to a meter, and it comes out at 27, which you already found.

 Maybe some more info about your mill could help determine the cutting speed.

 Are you talking how fast you make the cut, as in, inches per second down the log ?
 
What species of log ?  Hardwood or softwood ?
 
What diameter, width of boards ?

 Are the logs frozen or not ?

 What pitch of blade teeth 7/8" tip to tip of teeth ?? Using blade lube ?

 Blade roller guides or solid stock ?

 Have any photos to show us ?

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 01:19:44 PM »
Harold are you implying there is more to this milling thing than just cutting up logs??  :D :D :D ;)
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 02:13:35 PM »
 I'd reckon, Kirk.  I haven't sawn one in so long, I ferget which end to start on.  :-\ :-\

 I just remember how much help I needed, when we were building our bandmill. MANY people said "you can't build a bandmill that will work well".  You and Don saw it working, with a one man operation. ED never got to saw very much. He was always looking out for the old man, so he would not get hurt. He had a lot to learn, to run that mill, efficiently.  ;D ;D

 Shoot fire, he should be down here rat now. I'm logging some 20' logs down a hill, across a creek, then up the other side of the next hill. All with a rope, a snatch block, a 1/4" cable, a 30' tow strap, and a hand crank winch I just threw together in 2 1/2 days. Be glad when I can get the Jip close enough to hook on with a 50' cable.  ::) ::) :D :D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 10:41:13 AM »
Welcome to the forum.  Where are you located in the world ?
 Kirks 5000 SFPM is close enough. I was thinking 5300 ?? Anyway, divide that 5000 by 60 (seconds per minute, and then, divide that by 3 (Feet per yard, close to a meter, and it comes out at 27, which you already found.

 Maybe some more info about your mill could help determine the cutting speed.

 Are you talking how fast you make the cut, as in, inches per second down the log ?
 
What species of log ?  Hardwood or softwood ?
 
What diameter, width of boards ?

 Are the logs frozen or not ?

 What pitch of blade teeth 7/8" tip to tip of teeth ?? Using blade lube ?

 Blade roller guides or solid stock
 Have any photos to show us ?
thanks, for advertise. I am from Lithuania. to day i dont have my  mill photo but after one week i will make some. Some info i can give ( not all remember)?
motor ir electric 7,5kw, ~1450 speed.
main wheels demeter is about 56cm bur weight is big, about 30kg by one.
logs is from spruce, not frozen,
Blade roller guides is like in this photo, diameter 50mm

blade : thickness= 1mm,  width=35mm, tooth spacing 22mm, tip of teeth like photo, blade speed abouth 33m/s


bord about 20cm width, so  how fast i can the cut?
I apologize that i wrote in metric system.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:45:48 PM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 06:51:31 PM »
 Good info.  ;D

 OK. Blade is pretty close to what most of us use. The Tip to Tip Mm = 3/4" spacing. We pretty much all use 7/8. Might make a small difference in cut speed.

 The 7.5KW = 10 HP. That's pretty low, considering most of the mills use 20HP or higher. Some go over 100 HP.

 I'm not familiar with Spruce. Searching for info reveals, Spruce = difficult to saw. Don't know if that's tough wood, hard wood, or twisty wood ??

 Guide rollers look good.

 Is the outside guide roller (farthest away from the drive wheel) adjustable ?? Wood Mizers and some other models, including the oversized Wood Mizer we built, all have an adjustable guide. You need to keep that guide roller as close to the log-cant, as possible.

 Do you have any down pressure on the blade ?? Most of us use 1/8 inch (3-4 mm) down pressure. THat also helps control the blade.

 Are the logs fresh cut ?? On Pine, especially, the log bleeds sap which covers the ends of the logs. After a week or 2, that will start to harden, and, take the sharp right off the tips of the blades. How about dirt and small pieces of rocks stuck in the bark, from dragging the logs ??

 We use Munksforsager Blades, stock made in Sweden. Have sawn very hard, moderately hard, soft, stringy, and soaking wet, sinker logs. WILL NOT use any other brand.

 Other than what you posted, very sharp teeth and adjustable guide, and good lube, sounds like you make most of the stuff covered. Can you swap from a Spruce to anything else, while sawing, just to see if the Spruce IS the problem. I think it might be.

 Good luck and report back, if you get it figured out, so others can learn from your experience.

Offline Stevem

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 09:00:43 PM »

Reference spruce cutting.  Don't know about other types but the knots in Sitka Spruce draw sparks from a chain saw and make a circle blade (Mobile Dimension) ride up.  The wood itself is pretty easy to cut until you hit the knots.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 04:03:35 AM »

 Does not sound like good stuff to saw, if you have many knots.

 Old growth, "fat litered" SYP has hard knots, also. Makes for tricky sawing.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 10:19:30 AM »
So, Harold when i wach to your replys, i think that i am in the right way. My most big proble is: then i am cuting the log in small speed, the bord is looks good straight, but then i rised speed, bords became wavy, twisting. thats is most important problem for me. engine power is enought for me. Also problem is that i dont know how much to stretch a band. Next week i share some photo and will be much esy to say what i want . i'm not so good in eglish language  :-\
Spruce is almost like a pine. in our contry pine is used to buldings, which is resisable to water much beter like buldings from spruce.So pine is used in outdors buldings , spruse for indor works.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 01:10:42 PM »
 Did you use "V" belt pulleys as band wheels, or, automotive type trailer wheels ??

 On our mill, we use a long bolt that pulls the adjuster tight. It's a 5/8 915-16 mm) dia bolt. we tighten it with a 3/8" drive socket and ratchet. Pull until it stops moving, then a small jerk to be sure. Blades on WoodMizers are tensioned at 20,000 pounds of force, or so.

 There is another technique on another forum, that showed how to use a caliper. Clamp it to the blade somehow, then watch the stretch as you tighten the adjustment.

 I just don't believe they have to be all that tight. You should be able to make the engine, "Grunt" from the load as you cut. We try to keep the motor running at that grunting sound. IF the blade is slipping at all, you can't make the motor pull down RPM's (Grunt). On our mill, we used trailer wheels and tires. I believe that is the main reason we never break blades. We wear them down, so the gullets hit the rollers as a high speed ticking sound. A 1¼ wide blade is what we use.
 The hardest wood "Bisofia" Dark Red color, we cut, made the blade chatter and we had to go slower than normal. Still cut flat and true. Customer was always impressed with our cutting.

 Check around over in Europe for those Munks blades. Try to get one with 7/8 tip to tip (pitch), and see if that makes any difference. We also sharpened our own blades. If I knew we had HARD wood, harder than normal, I would cut the tooth face angle back from 10° to 7°. I did help. WoodMizer sells a 4° blade for HARD wood.  Never had to go back that far. The Swedish Steel just seems to make the difference.

  Don't see the photos I tried to post ???  AHhhhh, there they are.  8)

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 11:52:05 AM »
I am using "V" pulles as wheels but  they are bad becauce they have too much weght and are curved. so ypur system is abouth like this?

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
 Yes, our mill is like that. Make that bolt go on the other side, so you screw it in to tension the band.

 Bolt that is on the outside of that 2 bolt tensioner, is used to set blade alignment. When we tighten the inside bolt, that is the blade tension bolt. IF we tighten the inside bolt with a larger wrench, it will cause the wheel to move left end out, right end in, looking at that photo, so the blade tracks a little more toward the blade roller guide flange. That is how we check everything regarding the blade running properly. It only takes a little bit of movement to make the blade ride differently on the mill wheels.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:58:35 PM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 12:01:28 PM »
you used trailer wheels. how they ? good or not? properly? can you told that is good and what is bad?

In my case is bads fings like good. i bring v puleys from this tractor( i dont have enougt money to buoght wheels which a special made for bandmills.)

So one wheel have 3 "V" belts and weight is about 30kg. wheel is not properly, it have vibration.

 now i am looking new wheels. and i am not sure what to choose.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 12:29:24 PM by lauztuvass »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 12:34:33 PM »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »
 In Europe, there should be LOTS of 12" Opel cars. The front spindles are mounted to the axle with 4 bolts attaching with 2 flanges face to face. 12" wheels should give you 19-20" (483 mm-508 mm). We used 13" wheels and got 600mm. diameter.  The tires are not as solid as V-belts, so, they give a little. That helps prevent blade breakage.  The spindle mounts would make an easy mounting set up.

 We have found NO problems with the trailer tires. They were bought new, so, the tread is raised and, the teeth never touch the rubber, unless things get really wild inside those covers.

 We have sawn 904 mm wide table slabs with our mill, all day long.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 12:41:10 AM »
Nice... I was cuting about 60cm diameter log. And is over- biger i cant cut. Maybe you cat tell how long one band can cut? (until breaks it). In my mills one band  stand about 15 cubic meters log( only that amount of logs i cant cut with one band).
How much logs you can cut to bords in one day?(8 ours)

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 07:56:27 AM »
 60cm is a nice size log. Are you limited to width of blade guides, or, is that the limit your blade can cut, decently ??

 It is difficult to tell how long 1 band can cut. When I sharpen, I take off the very little amount of metal I can, to get that really sharp blade. I NEVER take a heavy cut. It will burn the steel and ruin the temper.
 Grinding a 1¼" blade down to ride on the roller teeth, so the gullets sound like a stripped gear, I never cared how long it had been used.

 IF you take off the blade, as soon as it starts getting dull, you will have much cleaner cut lumber and, more blade longevity. I would guess a blade would last 10,000 bd/ft ?? Sounds like a very high guess, but, remember I suggested the Munksforsager blades ??  They DO last a very long time.

 Blade lasting per day, is an entirely different thing. We have sawn all day, 6-7 hours actually cutting logs, with 1 blade. Logs were VERY clean, and were Southern Yellow Pine. Typical construction lumber.
 We once tried to saw a Beach (think ocean) log, and made 1 cut per sharpen. It was loaded with worm holes (teredos), and full of fine white sand. Customer wanted it done, so, I priced it very high, and made 4 cuts. He quit, not me.  ;D ;D  Photo below.

 MOST of our sawing was sunken logs from the river. they were loaded with fine white sand, and, we had a hose to wash logs down. That's partly why I can't say how many bd/ft per 8 hours.  We have sawn over 3500 bd/ft per day, loaded on a trailer, mostly natural live edge, for rustic table slabs. My son kept everything going smoothly from the mill onto the trailer, and I would keep logs ready to load, with 1 always sitting on the loader forks, ready to go up on the mill. We had a good system. Figure this to be 2½-3" thick table slabs. bd/ft adds up fast that way. We would start sawing around 7AM and have the trailer loaded and ready to head home by 3PM, same day. We were tired, but, that load would be worth $19,250.00. We could only haul 2000 bd/ft at a time, because the wood was soaking wet from the river, usually.

 Moving logs from the pile to the mill, and turning logs on the mill takes a third as much time as sawing the log, usually.

 We would cut the edges off the boards, 6 boards at a time, and, always 1" lumber. NEVER cut off the edge on the table slabs.  DO NOT be afraid of sawing ugly logs. IF they are YOUR logs, you can make some nice money.

 The last photo is Pecky Cypress in an "S" shape. Log was big but UGLY. We sold all 5 slabs for over $400.00 each. They are 37" (94cm) wide at the widest place and 2" (5.1cm) thick X 6' (183cm) long. 1 customer bough 4 and the last piece went for more than the $400.00 average.  ;) ;D

 Down here, in Costa Rica, all that wood would be "Basura", garbage, throw away.  ::) ::) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:05:10 AM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 09:59:38 AM »
My mill construction dont let cut more then about 60 cm.
Yes, then logs is clean clean is imposible to cut all day with one band. I with one band always cut about 1 cubic meters logs or about 2 ours. then i change it, becauce my bords mades like in picture below:

You have hidraulic logs lifter. It is good. i dont have but i want lif. what pump is in your mill?
big prise is in your contry for this type production like you cut.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:12:03 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 05:21:48 PM »

 The hyd pump is from a Dump system for a farm wagon or small pickup. It came with a reservoir and a valve. Needed a 12V DC motor connected to it.

 If you search in industrial type salvage yards, or on Craigslist in your area, you might find a hydraulic pump for a forklift. I have one of them for the mill I am building down here. You may have to be creative to get 2 way pressure system, so you can run cylinders up and down, under pressure. I also did the log stops as hydraulic, and the roller toe boards, and the 2 plane log clamp. Electric screw thread in-out, hydraulic up-down. Helps a bunch to move logs on the mill if they are heavy after squaring up, and, helps to turn those heavy logs, also.

 Think about what machines use hydraulics and what you can remodel to work for your needs. That Combine in your post should have plenty of Hydraulic stuff, cylinders hoses, valves, pumps, etc.

 Don't kid yourself about the prices. Go on the Internet and search for 1 piece table tops in Europe. There is a guy in Florida, USA, that sells Cypress trunk "rounds", we call 'em "Cookies" because of the shape. He sells them to Europe in a 20 foot container load, and gets prepaid before he ships.  This is a specialty market, so, look around. You may be pleasantly surprised.

 I still think you have trouble from that Spruce. Is it possible to get ANYTHING else to cut, besides Spruce ??

 I know of a guy in Sweden that built a mill and sawed a lot of storm downed trees. I lost contact with him, but, I will try to find him for you to exchange information with.

 Try to find 1 Munks Blade. We used WoodMizer, Lenox, Timberwolf, and another brand, I can't remember.  The Munks blade our machine come to life. The WoodMizer 1½" 7/8 pitch blade works well, also. We used that on old Sinker Southern Yellow Pine. It's TOUGH to cut, also. REAL sappy and a knotty top is a real bear to cut flat. I will put a photo in this post, of that SY Pine board.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 08:40:39 AM »
Nice bords. By the way Lenox and woodmizer is agent in lithuania. but i never tray this firm production.
Now i have some foto.. My mill is a litlle scary.. I never paint it. It is my first mill . I made it like i thought, without plans, witouth advice.  So..
My MILL
 















All materials was about 700 dolars. Not big investition. is buy a new mill , that will be about 7000 dollars and maded in polland(is not good, quality like in china  ;D) . My mill erned allredy more like i pay for materials. Now i am looking for oportunity to upgrade my old mill or build new.  To buy new mill i dont have money so much. So i am thinking what to do. Until now i have a work, so i havent a lot of time for mill, but after two weeks i will be unemployed person. I am looking for opportunity to work fow myself.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 09:04:50 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2012, 09:49:56 AM »
I find some info abouth spruce in english, if some one will be interesting
Timber
 




P. abies wood
Spruce is useful as a building wood, commonly referred to by several different names including North American timber, SPF (spruce, pine, fir) and whitewood. Spruce wood is used for many purposes, ranging from general construction work and crates to highly specialised uses in wooden aircraft, and as a tonewood in many musical instruments, including guitars, mandolins, cellos, violins, and the soundboard at the heart of a piano and the harp. The Wright brothers' first aircraft, the Flyer, was built of spruce.[5]
 
Because this species has no insect or decay resistance qualities after logging, it is generally recommended for construction purposes as indoor use only (ex. indoor drywall framing). Spruce wood, when left outside can not be expected to last more than 12–18 months depending on the type of climate it is exposed to.
 
[edit] Pulpwood
 
Spruce is one of the most important woods for paper uses, as it has long wood fibres which bind together to make strong paper. The fibres are thin walled and collapses to thin bands upon drying. Spruces are commonly used in mechanical pulping as they are easily bleached. Together with northern pines northern spruces are commonly used to make NBSK. Spruces are cultivated over vast areas as pulpwood.
 
[edit] Food and medicine
 
The leaves and branches, or the essential oils, can be used to brew spruce beer[clarification needed]. The tips from the needles can be used to make spruce tip syrup[clarification needed]. Native Americans in New England also used the sap to make a gum which was used for various reasons, and which was the basis of the first commercial production of chewing gum.[6] In survival situations spruce needles can be directly ingested or boiled into a tea.[7] This replaces large amounts of vitamin C. Also, water is stored in a spruce's needles, providing an alternative means of hydration[clarification needed]. Spruce can be used as a preventative measure for scurvy in an environment where meat is the only prominent food source[clarification needed].
 
[edit] Other uses
 
The resin was used in the manufacture of pitch in the past (before the use of petrochemicals); the scientific name Picea is generally thought to be derived from Latin pix, pitch (though other etymologies have been suggested).
 
Native Americans in North America use the thin, pliable roots of some species for weaving baskets and for sewing together pieces of birch bark for canoes. See also Kiidk'yaas for an unusual golden Sitka Spruce sacred to the Haida people.
 
Spruces are also popular ornamental trees in horticulture, admired for their evergreen, symmetrical narrow-conic growth habit. For the same reason, some (particularly Picea abies and P. omorika) are also extensively used as Christmas trees.
 
Spruce branches are also used at Aintree racecourse, Liverpool, to build several of the fences on the Grand National course. It is also used to make sculptures and Christmas trees.

Offline Wudkutter

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 11:03:55 AM »
I built my mill too. Paint doesn't cut wood.  Sharp bands cut wood.  Guides have to be very parallel with the bed rails.  Blades have to be flat and set properly.  Blade speed may be too fast if wood is frozen.  Higher speed makes more heat and the sawdust freezes in the kerf not leaving enough clearance for the blade.  Fast blade speed and slow feed can heat teeth tips, dulling them sooner.  Dull blades will cut wavy.  Go to Cooksaw.com  (link at top of page) Buy videos or see their video on line.  Much good information about sawing straight and fast.  Also make sure band is running on just one belt on your 3 groove pulley also that the teeth don't touch the pulley or belt or guides.
Keep working on it and you WILL get it figured out.   Photos   http://s1109.photobucket.com/home/lslehman/index
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:13:53 PM by Wudkutter »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 12:06:18 PM »

 Good info from Wudkutter. I have never had the pleasure to saw frozen logs or have sawdust freeze. That could very well be part of your problem.

 First thing I would do is, check everything for proper alignment. Second is, make a strong movable blade guide for the roller guide farthest from the drive wheel.
 We used a windshield wiper motor, without the cam action. We took that off and used the motor shaft with a skateboard wheel machined onto it. That runs on the square solid steel bar, that is mounted in the Diamond position, that is, NOT flat side down, but an EDGE down. Let me see if I have a photo.

 The motor on there now is, from a powered wheelchair. The square bar rides on the 4 roller wheels I made, with bearings. They are all adjustable, so the roller runs exactly parallel with the log bunks.  Other one didn't stand up to the weather. You need to keep that roller as close to the log-cant as possible, to help control the blade.

 Mill is pretty heavy built, but, if it's not shaky, it should cut good lumber.

Offline Wudkutter

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 12:41:54 PM »
Having trouble getting photos to load so I added link to my photo sight on last post. 
I just used 19" V pulley for band wheels.  Good for smaller machine.  10HP electric motor is about equal to 15HP engine in torque(1 1/2 X electric)  Vibration in band wheels can cause blade to break early.  Also profile grinding removes micro fractures that lead to band breaking early.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2012, 11:05:16 AM »
Nice job Wudkutter. there is winter in my country. i dont work with my mill. abouth one months latter will be spring, so i am planning to start work with it. Also i cant share some video about my mill at now..
About my mistakes:
1. My main wheels- vibrations is so big that all my mill is trembling. One main wheel i cat adjust( which is driven by motor). but second is very dificult to adjuct(it wheel is tencioning band).
2. I think that big mistake is that i used this type bearings

They are plased in main wheels. If they are to little tightened, whell have  unconstraint, unrestraint movements. So every day is  necessary to check and adjuct this bearings.
3. My guide rollers is also dificult to adjust. .

So, what i want. I want your apinions that i am right abouth my mistakes or not. also I want some advice how to update(repair) these my mistakes . Thanks for advise  ;)
 

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2012, 11:29:06 AM »
About grinder is with whis type whetstone

All grinder constuction i made myself. But i dont have a good teeth setter. Always i am sharpening at first , and after that i am setting up teeth. In forum i readed that is better to set up teeth and then sharpen. So, how is better to do?

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2012, 12:59:40 PM »

 Regarding balancing wheels. If you take off the blade, does the driven wheel float freely enough, to allow the heavy part to stop at the bottom of rotation ?? Most of those wheels are drilled at the heavy spot, but not clear through, to remove weight. IF the wheels floats freely, try drilling, a little at a time.

 Same for the drive wheel. Take off the drive belt and see if that floats, the same as the driven wheel. Sometimes, those drilled spots could have dirt buildup, from bugs, that will throw the balance out. Check all that before drilling.

 Tapered bearings are NO problem. maybe you don't pre-tension them correctly???  Loosen up the castellated nut. Turn the nut to loosen it. Then, while turning, tighten the nut, slowly, with pliers, not a wrench. Keep tightening while turning, until the wheels turns fairly stiff, then, back the nut off until you get to the very first open hole to put the cotter pin in. A little looseness is not a bad thing. Stop adjusting every day.

 I posted a photo of how I did the adjustable blade guide. Do a Google search for different brands of band mills. Look at their designs and copy what you can. I used a photo from Woodmizers sales brochure, and measured the actual wheel dia ON THE PHOTO. Then figured what the scale was to make the entire mill larger.  That is EXACTLY how we built the mill, from that sales brochure.

 I didn't see anything bad about your mill. I'm impressed you made it work. Now, go over it 1 item at a time, and see if you would make changes to each item. As I wrote earlier, if anything is shaky, or wobbles, change it so it does not. THEN, adjust the mill and see how it works.

 You can build a blade setter. You need an adjustable push device, a small vise like bracket for the blade to slide through, and a dial indicator. For example, do a Google on Band sawmill blade setter. Then, copy it. Once you have something durable, then, we can help you set it up. ALL this stuff is not difficult, especially when you have the forum to advise you.

 That's how I got things working. Here's a photo of what we can do to a big log. My Son's head is hidden behind the band wheel cover.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2012, 07:03:16 AM »
I was looking for new gides rollers system. i found one , want to ask apionion about it.


Meaby someone have used this type and can say apinion

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2012, 08:20:10 AM »
 That's a decent option.  However, you have to physically move to adjust the guide, every time you do anything concerning a knot or other lump on the side of the log. I always kept the roller within an inch of the log-cant, while sawing. Once the log is reduced to a cant, adjustments are not usually necessary.

 The square tube as a bracket for the shaft to slide through, will have tension on it, from the down pressure of the guide. 1/8" inch (approx 3mm) downforce, will help the blade immensely to saw flat lumber.
 You MUST maintain a flat plane of travel of that guide roller, no matter how far out it extends. You MUST maintain the amount of blade deflection, (1/8" ) or whatever works best on your mill, so lumber comes of as close to the same measurements in every direction.

 Tapered, off thickness, or other "defects", means more time for the woodworker to plane the board. Making boards as near perfect as possible, will generate more sales, if that is ever your goal.

 Adding a small wheel of some sort, will help that shaft slide MUCH easier. An automotive windshield wiper, will drive that shaft and make the guide fully adjustable.

 Many is the time I had to move the guide roller in or out, while sawing. Stopping all the time, or, spending much time cutting off most protrusions on the logs, before loading them, will eat into the frustration of little amounts of lumber per hour of sawing.

 Anything beats what you started with. Just trying to automate you a little. Sawing is a pleasant thing, as long as frustration does not set in. Now that you are making mods to the mill, you should keep asking questions. Our help will get you thinking of how to make the mill more efficient. Remember, you are not making money, if the blade is not IN the log. Money aside, I use that line, to get you to realize the better you make the mill work, the EASIER (faster) you make product.

 I was impressed with your first photos, now, impress us some more.  8) 8) ;D ;D

 Do you ever think of sawing thin boards, like 1/4" (6-7mm) ?? We did quite a bit of that, and, made up a re-saw device to accomplish this. Sometimes, making boards that the public can not buy, can make you some decent side money.

 Sawing ovals is another way to increase sales a little, if you could stand a little extra money from time to time. We always could.  ;) :laugh:

 I DO get carried away with the words, huh ??   :D :D :D :D :D  I just like sharing what I have learned.  :laugh:

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 06:56:30 AM »
 :laugh: , is very good for me that you share about your experiences
 with band mill. Also it very good that you everything write wide( i can understand almost everything that are you wrote). I also want write more but it is difficult for me, becauce i am not good in english.
About thin boards. When i made my mill, it was cutting better like now. Then i was cutting abuot 5mm thin bords, and this boards was good. In our contry these bords is used on the roof.


About guide rollers. You are rigth about rolers. It is more better then i can the roller to control every time then i want. If adjusting is manual, it is need to stop mill if i want to regulate roller. In your mill control is electrical. I think, that your system is simple to made. so i made one  work drawings .

 I think, that i good understand your system. so, what you can say abouth your system? You are content with it works? it is reliable?


Also i found some info abuot band speed in band mills. There is link http://www.cookssaw.com/increase-portable-sawmill-profits-a-production/how-fast-should-a-bandwheel-turn.html

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 07:43:19 AM »
 Excellent work with the thin board sawing. 2 thumbs up. (Where is the thumbs up Smiley, Kirk) ???  ;D

 Have you given thought to use the thin boards INSIDE the houses, like Closet lining ??  In the USA, there is Red Cedar, that is a violet-red color, with whitish streaks, and has a nice aroma, that helps repel bugs and moths. It is used for Closet lining, and chests.

 The movable guide you drew up, is 98% like what we did. Only thing, is, you need to mount the roller below the bar, so you get clearance to mount the roller wheels that guide the bar in and out. Make adjusters, so you can fine tune the bar movement. It needs to travel exactly parallel to the mill bunks, with that 1/8" down pressure. Do the guides you have, have adjustments built in, so you can move the roller up-down-left-right, without moving the mounting bolt ??

 I mounted a skate board wheel on to the motor shaft, and when bolted down, the wheel has sufficient contact to move the roller. IF the roller hits an object, (it will eventually). The drive wheel slips, like a clutch, and keeps the system from being damaged.

 There is a Company, in Russia ?, that makes vacuum kilns. After loading semi-air dried lumber into the kiln, they apply the vacuum. It draws the air-sap out of the log. Then they use a colored liquid, to flood the kiln, and it soaks into the lumber VERY well.

 This is just something for you to investigate.

 I like your work, so, I try hard to make my comments easy as possible for you or anyone, to follow.

 Add a photo from time to time. We all here enjoy photos.

 

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2012, 08:51:31 AM »
I share draws about your post " The movable guide you drew up, is 98% like what we did. Only thing, is, you need to mount the roller below the bar, so you get clearance to mount the roller wheels that guide the bar in and out. Make adjusters, so you can fine tune the bar movement. It needs to travel exactly parallel to the mill bunks, with that 1/8" down pressure. Do the guides you have, have adjustments built in, so you can move the roller up-down-left-right, without moving the mounting bolt ??"
I want to make sure that i good understant you.


 :-\     ???
Ups, one error i did. 1/8 is not 3cm like i wrote in my draws.
 So,  1 inch=2.54 cm ., 2,54x1:8= 0,3175cm=3,175mm   ;D
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 09:36:42 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2012, 10:18:04 AM »
 Yes, you have that part right.  8) 8)  The drawing is good.  ;D

 Now, go back to page 1 of this thread, reply #5. YOUR post. See the photo of the guide that is mounted BELOW the bar that is adjustable ??  This is how you need to do your new modification. This will allow you to also ount the BRACKET that the tube or solid bar will slide through, so you have room to adjust that roller section, also.

 Also, INSIDE the roller guide tube, IF you purchased one, there is a bolt with the center that is smaller than the rest of the bolt. This is the bolt that the roller is fastened to. There should be 4 screws with locknuts on each side of that tube that houses the roller. That is how you adjust the roller itself.

 You may have this. I have not seen it in your photos.  This makes 2 totally different adjustment parts. One is for PARALLEL up-down. The other is pitching the roller WHEEL at different angles. The rollers should be twisted just a little bit away from the blade travel direction.

 For example, as the blade runs from left to right, for example, the roller on the DRIVE side of the mill, should be twisted slightly TO the left, so the blade only touches the EXIT side of the flange on the roller, BUT, only as the blade is cutting, not running freely.

 On the DRIVEN side, the roller should be twisted TO the left, also, so the blade only touches the EXIT side of the roller flange.

 This is difficult for me to explain. Let me know if you understand. I have NO examples or photos to show what I want you to understand.

This is so the blade can NEVER climb UP_ON the flange, as the blade is running.

OK. I went back to your photos, and, you do NOT have adjustable angle type guides. IF you can get the ones you have to work correctly, try is and see how the blade cuts. You may be able to put small wedges on whatever part you need, to get the rollers to run as I have written.

 Many people say it is nearly impossible to make a home made mill cut good lumber. You, my friend, have done well. I'm just trying to add "fine tuning" to your mill.

 Also, When I was looking at your photos, It seems that the belts are riding nearly even with the outside of the rim of the pulleys. IF that is so, you need to try to find a wider belt, OR, maybe cut a slice of an old innertube, to make a large band, and stretch it over the pulley, working it down into the groove the belt rides in. Then, mash the belt down into that innertube band, so the belt rides just a little above the rim of the pulleys. This MAY be too much, but, you do NOT want the blade to run on the rim of the pulleys.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 10:26:59 AM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2012, 06:02:38 AM »
 :(
Hi, i came back  :laugh: . Four days ago broke down my computer- i cant to start windows. trees days i was trying to reinstal windos- my dvd-rom not work. But to day everythink is good  8) .
So i a little work with my mill. i  dismantle my mill .




In second picture in red 1 i think to fit a motor. Alsow i am waiting a new roler( on this rollers are all head moving).Old system is not good becauce it is inaccurate. The roller have free place to move to rihgt o left. Also is bad that head of the  track have big area- everethink is holding on it :sawdust, rind of the logs. Also i fuonded that my track is not  straight.


So now i think to put 20mm diameter metal stick on old track and to do new rollers like in this draws
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 06:23:04 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
 If that was my mill, first thing I would do is, raise it up off the ground about 6" (150mm) or more, 12 " (300mm) would be better. You need to keep the area around and under the mill, clean. Any bark (rind) of the logs, could make the mill hard to push or cause it to jump over the piece. Last thing you need is a problem, when the blade is way into the log. Once the mill is raised up, you will find it MUCH nicer to use.

 Then, make the track rails as perfect as possible. Make sure it is perfectly flat, especially. That will eliminate any question of the mill head not traveling correctly down the rails.

 Those rollers (wheels) that run on the track, would work for a long time, and, allow you to concentrate on more important things. If you have all those rollers on the mill, adjust them, so that one edge rides close to the outside edge of the track, on all 4 or more rollers. That way, the sideways travel of the head can be avoided. Use the edges of the rollers to guide the mill as it runs back and forth on the track. The rollers in the photo you posted are running in the center on the track. Don't make them rub the sides, just move them closer to the track.

 The round "stick" of metal needs to be very hard, or, it will wear flat spots and cause problems.  That mill is very heavy.

 Good to see you are completely rebuilding the mill. Now that you know you can saw logs, you want to be able to enjoy it. Nice work so far.  8) 8) 8)

 I have a Peterson Swing Blade mill, here. The engine went bad, so, I have converted the mill to electric. It's only 5 HP, but, it's good enough for me, no more logs than I saw, now.  Always something to fix on sawmills.  ;D ;D :D :D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2012, 06:41:31 AM »
" If that was my mill, first thing I would do is, raise it up off the ground about 6" (150mm) or more, 12 " (300mm) would be better. You need to keep the area around and under the mill, clean. Any bark (rind) of the logs, could make the mill hard to push or cause it to jump over the piece. Last thing you need is a problem, when the blade is way into the log. Once the mill is raised up, you will find it MUCH nicer to use."
 I also was thinking to raise my mill. Now track is on the ground. Is posible to do a legs. but now i am thinking how adjust track (make flat as posible).
also i have some more alternative where to put my track and all mill. In one of my photos you can see a big buiding. In a future i want to put my mill to this building, becauce the weather is very diferent every day in my country. So it is dificult to choise what to do: in summer is good to work in outside but spring, autumn and winter the weather is rainfull.
And now i am almost sure it is better, to put my mill to this garage, becauce  it is needed completely rebuilding my mill.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2012, 06:53:34 AM »

 Usually, beams about 300mm x 300mm. Use them like a railroad track. Legs will wobble with that heavy mill.

 If you put the mill in that building, could you make doors to open, so you can put logs on the mill. That will give air in hot weather, also.

 Good thinking to put the mill inside.  ;D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2012, 12:34:03 PM »
Hi, All
My works is going to forward. I dice to move my mill to inside. So made legs from concrete. those legs are abouth 30cm height and about 80cm udergruond deep.  I put a screw to centre leg. So it will be easy to adjust my tracks . Also i moved my tracks to garage.

 



Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2012, 01:04:21 PM »

 2 thumbs up !!!!!!!!!!  Excellent job. Now you have a way to keep things clean and DRY. Patiently waiting to see how you mod the sawhead. Are you thinking of a power feed for the sawhead ??

 We made ours with an electric DC motor and chain, same as the WoodMizer. Bought a controller for the motor, to work the speed of travel, and, used a drum switch for forward-reverse. Took some figuring out to wire the switch, but, beats pushing and pulling the sawhead all day.

 This way, after making the cut, step up and drag the board-cant off the log, and reverse the head to drop down for the next cut. We also built a drag back for dragging the boards, slabs back to the end for the operator to move, if working alone. Works well, but, we nearly always had 2 people running the mill.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 03:51:02 PM »
Thans for support Harold  ;)
Yes, i want to build electric head muving up and down and also to forward and back. If i right uderstand you used 12volt motor. So maybe can you tell me how much power those motor have?
To move sawhead up an down, everything i have. Only i dont have a motor.
To move sawhead foward and back i dont have nothing. Chain is not problem. Bigger problem to put right motor. So maybe can you tell some advise? becauce an electrical engineer i am bad. But i think is beter to chose dc 12 volte motor becauce those motor not be afraid to load like 220volt motors. Now i am thinking about power- how much power is need for me?

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 04:46:38 PM »
 I believe you have plenty of motors. Try starter motors from gas or diesel engines. We used a worm gear drive boat winch on the up-down. We rigged an outboard motor starter motor to it, to save some weight. Sawn over 200,000 bd/ft of lumber, and, changed the brushes 1 time.

 I bought a large sized 3/4HP motor for the forward-reverse. Got a good price, but, it's WAYY over what I should have used.

 I see absolutely no problem with automotive starter motors. They are plentiful and relatively cheap. You just need to work out the gearing, so things can move at workable speed.  On the drive system, go on ebay, just for info, and look for electric scooter BRUSHED motor controller. 12-24Volt. That should be plenty for your forward-reverse.

 You will also need the drum switch for the forward reverse.

 For the up-down, we used a 50Amp on-off-on, self centering toggle switch. Just be sure to allow the motor to COMPLETELY stop turning, before switching in the opposite direction.

 Are you using threaded rod for the up-down device ?? That's why we went with the worm gear drive. self holding when stopped.

 I can post a few photos for you, when you are planning the drive and up-down parts.

EDIT: I forgot about the old tractor you are using parts from. Does that have any hydraulic cylinders, hoses, pump, etc ??? That's how we made the log CLAMPING device, using a cylinder for contacting the log, high and lower, as needed. Also, used hydraulics for the log loader.  I would salvage anything off that tractor (combine), if I could.  Does it have an adjustable travel speed, like an automatic transmission would work ??  I had a John Deere combine, and, as I reached areas in the field that were uneven, I could slow the machine without slowing the engine, then, speed back up, after I left the uneven area.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:14:48 PM by HaroldCR »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2012, 06:54:07 AM »
How the weather in usa?  ;)   In lithuania the winter is end. Now is starting the spring. Every day is more and more sun in the sky.  ;D
I am working with my mill. Not very  much, . So my track is in the place, flat. I moved mill head's to the garage. When we put it on the track, i sow that mill head is to hight. It grapple to the  ceiling. But it is not a big problem. Only few ours of works and everything will be good  ;D .

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2012, 09:27:45 AM »

 As for me, I don't how the weather is in the US. I live in Costa Rica.  ;) ;D ;D ;D

 Sounds like you didn't think too hard about the height of the mill, so it would not hit the rafters. I was going to ask, but, did not want to act like you were not smart enough to think things through.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

 Got a chainsaw ???  ;D ;D ;D :laugh: :laugh: 

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2012, 11:14:14 AM »
" Got a chainsaw Huh?  Grin Grin Grin laugh laugh  "..   ;D ;D  yesterday i call one men to help for my. when we put the mill head on the tracks, he also said that it is chainsaw need here  ??? .
Everythink is good. heights was only 3cm to much. So, main construction i dont tuch.In the foto (few post over) you can see the small peace of metall on the head. So, i take off it. Thats all.  :P
 You from costa rica? you are in central america. i never wach your description acount  :D. Ever was snow in your coutry?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 11:42:58 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 04:41:58 AM »

 chainsaw = hacksaw ???  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 I grew up with snow, in the North East USA. Now, if I want to see ice and snow, I open the freezer door on my refrigerator.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2012, 02:40:32 AM »
Few foto from me


and tension system


Also i made small video. both wheels is in the place. I made adjustmens .
So at now i have question: how much i can to stretch  a blade? I dont have any device to measure.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 04:40:45 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2012, 04:45:35 AM »
In previously post is error. I dont post second foto  :-\

this is my tensioner.

and my first smal video


quality is poor..


« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 05:08:51 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 10:08:03 AM »
 Like the video. I need to learn how to make videos and post them.

 Tensioner looks good. We use a 3/8" (My MM ruler is missing?) ratchet/socket wrench, to adjust the blade tension. When it gets difficult to turn the wrench, that is tight enough. Under tension, watch carefully, to see if the pulley on the tensioner side tries to twist slightly, as you increase tension. The main thing is, get sufficient clearance under the belt, so the blade never touches the metal pulley.

 What I would suggest, is, find a way to cut down the outer part of the pulleys (wheels). IF the teeth ever get far enough toward those edges of the pulleys, especially inside the building, the noise and sparks will scare you to death.  :o :o :o :o :o :D :D :D :D :D

 I would try making up a rope that would turn the pulleys, and, use a grinder while the pulleys are turning, to take some material off those pulleys. It might work good as you have it. It's not necessary to remove that, but, I would.

 When you are ready to do electrical, let me know.

 You should be ready for the first log after rebuilding the mill, very soon. Looking MUCH better, so far.   8) 8)
 

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2012, 06:40:11 AM »
Hi all. its time to rise from the dead this post  ;D.
I have one inportant question for me  :laugh:
How to do that my mill head run forward and back by electric motor? i want to made a adjust-able speed . for example : to forward slow speed, and back faster speed. Like i said, in my mill everything in electric motor( no gas engine, no gear box, no alternator), everything ir 220v or 380v.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2012, 07:00:38 AM »
Chain from one end to the other and a electric motor with a gear that engages the chain like a bycycle sprocket does. 

Have the motor conneted to a reistate control that allows you to control the amount of power to the motor to speed it up or slow it down.  1 switch for OFF, Forward, and Reverse. Very simple and works great!

Welcome back! 

Have you got your roller guieds figured out?  I have the early version Wood Mizer used available if it helps you any.  Cost is probably out of this world though but your welcome to it if you want it. 
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2012, 07:54:56 AM »
 Good to see you back.  ;D ;D

 On the head feed, Kirk has the simplest solution. I might have a couple photos of how we did our mill.

 On the motor, I'm not exactly sure how to do it with AC voltage, especially that high of voltage you have.

 It does not take a large Horse power motor, even on your heavy sawhead. It will require a special inverter that you can adjust the output voltage to the motor.

 I would try to find room for a 12V battery, and use DC motor and controller. A brushed motor controller can be purchased from dependable Chinese Companies. Look on Ebay for a seller E-crazyman. He is very dependable and produces good controllers. Many people on a forum I read, have used E-crazyman controllers. Brushed motors are easy to find, at least in the USA and Costa Rica.

 Think about small car starter motor or outboard motor starter motor. You will need to modify the GROUND brush leads, so you can reverse the motor direction. That is easy enough to do by running a separate ground wire to the DRUM switch, that is used to make the motor run forward and backward.

 Let me see if I can find photos for you. OPrange photo is Wood Mizer feed chain. Green photo is our feed chain. Same design. Can't locare other photos at this time. I will look for more photos.

 Have you tried to saw a log since the remodel of your mill ?

  Harold

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2012, 11:05:09 AM »
Thanks for fast replys  ;).  Yes, i try my mill. Now is better like before. If my cain is right ,i can cut more faster. My first try was with thin logs (abouth 18cm diameter). I am hapy how mill cut. Now i am waiting for a some rollers( to make a carriage for logs- move logs inside my garage).
Harold is right about heads moving. In my case is AC power and it is expensive to make this system. So, meaby is a good idea to place converter from 220V AC to 12V or 24V DC? . or batery like Harold said.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2012, 01:49:43 PM »
 If you know how to do a converter from 220AC down to 12 or 24V DC, then you can use the cheap chinese controller. You will need to gear down the motor so it turns fast at full speed, but, the sawhead moves at walking speed. That is fast enough for ANY sawing, and, it will be too fast for most sawing. Then, the variable speed controller will work well to control the speeds, without a complicated electronics system.

 I'm trying to remember the gear ratio we ended up using. The motor and gearing is mounted under the sawhead, along side the supports for the sawhead. The chain goes end of mill to end of mill, and it MUST go around 2 idlers, so the chain stays in full contact with the drive sprocket. We used 3 sprockets, one on the geared down shaft, and 2 as idlers. The chain goes from under 1 idler, up and around the drive sprocket and then, down and under the second idler, and then to the other end of the mill.

 I THINK our motor was 1250 RPM, and we geared it to 2" or 2.5" on the motor and 8" or 9" on the geared shaft that drives the sprocket.

 Do you know what a "drum Switch" is ?? If not, I will try to find photos of one and draw up some wiring diagrams for you to be confused with, even more.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 Also, in the green photo, you can see the motor pulley and the geared shaft drive pulley, and the position it is mounted on our sawmill.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
Abouth converter- converter is not expensive part. Your motor ir powerfull? how much KW? I thing that is not necessary powerfull, about 500W quit enough.
I am waiting for your fotos Harold  ;).

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2012, 02:59:04 PM »



Abouth sprockets and chain - i think that i right understand you  ;D.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2012, 03:08:34 PM »

 Yes on all comments. I had no idea what size motor to buy, so, I bought a 3/4 horsepower. That's 560W total.

 I'm sure a starter motor, modded, would be fine. There is not that much torque needed to push the saw into the log. In fact, it should almost pull itself along from the teeth on the blade pulling on the wood as it cuts.

 I am tied up on the computer, but, I will work on the photo things later and post them this evening.  ;D ;D

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2012, 09:36:05 PM »

 The drum switch photos are here.
 On the one showing the fingers (contacts) this is where the head scratching comes in.

 I have been trying to figure out how to wire this drum switch. I'm just too damn old to figure out these things.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

 You just need to have the switch, so you can work it one way, then, the other. + and - will be fastened to common contacts. Then, as you work the switch, you will cross the wires to get forward-reverse.

 The one we used, had half circle center contacts, that would strike finger contacts, so it's easy to see how to cross wires.

 On a brushed motor, + wire is fastened to insulated brush wire. - brush wire is grounded to case. You need to get another set of brushes, so you have another insulated brushwire. Make an insulator from fibre washers or similar, and fasten the 2nd insulated brush wire to the outside of the case. This way, you have 2 insulated brush wires, not touching the motor case, so you hook 1 wire + and the other -.

 The wiring from the drum switch is what feeds the crossed + and - for forward/reverse.

 Sorry I don't have more photos, but, with the work you have done, I'm certain you can figure this out. If not Kirk will assist you.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2012, 11:31:57 AM »
I am not sure but i think one drum swich plased in my mill. mills head up and down is moving by electric motor. I pic 3 phase AC motor 1460rm and about 1kw power. This drum swich have 3 contacts like yuors. Ground i connect without swich. After few days i place here foto and wiring diagram .Maybe it helps you to understand how is working yor swich.
I was long time thinking about starter motor. One men( electric) said that this type motors is not good for long work. Motors too fast heating and they bring a lot of power: then motor is startig it takes about 100A at the start moment; wile is runnig it take abouth 50A power. It is truth or not- i dont now.
In next week i will try to find out more about starter motor modifications, becauce i have two or tree motors.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2012, 02:21:20 PM »
 Actually, starter motors DO take a lot of amps. However, today, they have permanent magnet motors that are geared. One of those, modded with an end plate and bearing, will do just fine. Gearing a motor will take away all that big amp draw. Do you have car and trucks with electric fan motors that are made to run a long time under extreme conditions.

 Plenty of motors. Also, the drive motor doesn't run all the time. If it does get hot, put a fan on it. Even a windshield motor from a BIG truck or bus will work. They are already DC and made to work under extreme conditions.

 Look forward to your schematics. My problem is, I don't have one of those switches in my hand, otherwise, I could just figure it out.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 02:46:05 PM by HaroldCR »

Offline Stevem

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2012, 02:31:40 AM »
Convert AC to DC.  Get a permanent magnet DC motor that will run either way depending on how you apply the DC.  Speed depends on voltage applied.

Example:  http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Motors/DC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_IronHorse_%280.33_-_2HP%29
Stevem
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Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2012, 06:33:04 AM »
I have two starters from gas engine. they are not big . both have reductors. One have magnets and 4 brush. another have 2 brush and dont have a magnets. bot dont have a bearings.
Also i found a engine fan from LANCIA TEMA 2.0l gas motor. It have magnets and 4 brush, but no bearings. so ,it is not small, biger like starters. I fink it is very fast.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 06:59:52 AM by lauztuvass »

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2012, 08:12:58 AM »
 That fan motor looks good. I believe it will be fine, if you make all the brush leads insulated from the housing, so you can reverse the +/- wires with the drum switch. It will handle enough amps to do the job. You WILL be gearing the drive system. ACTUALLY it looks to be insulated, already.  ::) ;D

 Stick it together and try touching the wires to battery +/- and them switch them, to see if it does turn both ways. ALSO. before putting it together, take a straight edge and lay it along one side of a brush holder, so it extends to the opposite brush holder. Looking at the photo, it looks like the holders are not exactly parallel, which means the brushes might be advanced on the commutator. That will increase the motor speed a little, and make it a little less powerful. If all 4 holders are parallel, meaning NOT slightly out of alignment, you are good to go. You may not even NEED to use bearings. IF the bushings are good, just smear a dab of good grease on the shafts and put it to use.

 Those mounting screws are not sufficient to handle the torque the motor will create when starting to turn. Make the mount rigid, or make a cradle or something, so you can strap the motor down.

 Also, starter motors are CAPABLE of pulling high amps. ANY motor will only pull the amps it needs to get the job done. Starters are made to turn the bendix drive, which is only connected to the shaft when it is activated. Turning in reverse may not turn the gearing, unless you can spot weld them or use a couple set (grub) screws. I never took one of those starters apart. They would certainly last you many years if you could make one turn both ways using the gearbox.

 You can also run that motor with 6-8 volts and that will slow it down some.

 Not sure about the newer ones, but, the older WoodMizer sawmills have motors for up-down and feed speed that are as small or smaller in size than your fan motor.

 For example, look on ebay.com for a 12V brushed motor speed controller. They are small and will connect directly to the drum switch. As you turn the knob the motor starts to turn, and, as you turn it more, the motor turns faster.

 Any motor is capable of having bearings installed. You can look for needle bearing sets that might fit the shaft and housing. The motor will not be turning fast, at a steady speed, so, they will be fine. Outboard motors on boats use needle bearings, or did for many years.

 We never did discuss if you are going to walk with the sawhead, or, stand at the end of the mill and have the controls in a box on a stand. WE built ours to stay at one end. The controller and drum switch are all in the box and it is weather tight.

Offline Stevem

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2012, 01:02:21 AM »
Just a thought.

wouldn't the motor out of a tread mill work?  High torque and already set up to be variable speed.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2012, 06:03:52 AM »

 That runs off an AC to DC converter to make the motor controllable. Most all treadmill motors are 90V DC.

 Does he have an AC outlet in the barn to run it ?  Also, he would need to drag the cables along with the mill, like we do with our mill. It's not a problem for us. That's one reason I asked if he was doing a stationary operator control or walking with the mill.

 There are several ways to get the head to move. I believe he is strapped for cash, like most of us, and trying to do things as thrifty as possible.

 

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2012, 08:04:24 AM »

 lauztuvass
 How about some photos of stacks of Latvian lumber ??   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2012, 11:31:50 AM »

 Make that Lithuanian Lumber.  ::) ::) ;D ;D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2012, 03:19:40 AM »
 ;D ;D
is not easy for me- about two weeks i made nothing to my mill  :( :( :( :(
But i give a promise-soon i post some foto of stacks of Lithuanian lumber  ;D ;D ;D

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2012, 08:09:54 AM »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 No problem. Just checking to see if you were buried under a mountain of sawdust. ;) ;) ;D ;D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2012, 12:58:07 AM »
my first Job





All sumer i was wrking in forest. so did nothing to my mill. Now head up and down is moving by electric motor. To foward and back is moving by my arms efforts  ;D ;D

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2012, 07:28:13 AM »

 Boards are thick and thin. Is that from the list of boards needed, or, from experimenting on how the mill works?

 Now, you need some roller tables set up, to run the sawn lumber on down the building out of the way.

 Are you happy with how the mill works, now.  Looks good from here.

 What is the name of the wood ?  Hard, semi-hard, soft ?

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2012, 09:54:31 AM »
Boards are thick and thin. Is that from the list of boards needed, or, from experimenting on how the mill works?
Boards are 25mm thin. In our country this is standar- 1inch thin.  Mill works good. While the chain is sharp- everytink is good. Abouth 1mm bord is  thicknest at the end of log. But i thint, that is not a problem- it is good precision.
Now, you need some roller tables set up, to run the sawn lumber on down the building out of the way.
You mean- to build a tracks and cart to bring bords to outside of my building? Yes, i agree. It is good option. Also to morrow i put some foto, hove i brings logs to the building.

Are you happy with how the mill works, now.  Looks good from here.

I am happy. But i have some points to solve:
My main wheels is too havy- they too much is vibrate.
My mills head is very havy and some times is too hard to push it.
My tracks is flat, so, sawdust are collecting on it, and then is hard to push head to foward.
[/quote]
What is the name of the wood ?  Hard, semi-hard, soft ?

Wood is name is spruce. It is semi-hard. More info is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce
In short- Spruce is useful as a building wood, commonly referred to by several different names including North American timber, SPF (spruce, pine, fir) and whitewood. Spruce wood is used for many purposes, ranging from general construction work and crates to highly specialised uses in wooden aircraft, and as a tonewood in many musical instruments, including guitars, mandolins, cellos, violins, and the soundboard at the heart of a piano and the harp. The Wright brothers' first aircraft, the Flyer, was built of spruce.[5]

Because this species has no insect or decay resistance qualities after logging, it is generally recommended for construction purposes as indoor use only (ex. indoor drywall framing). Spruce wood, when left outside can not be expected to last more than 12–18 months depending on the type of climate it is exposed to.
In my country spruce covered about  20 % of all forests.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2012, 11:44:58 AM »


 No cart for the boards.  Build a couple 2-3 table frames, and make some rollers that are about 20" wide. Mount them so they are slightly above the table frames, so, as you remove a board, you give it a push, and it will move along the table on the rollers. Build the second and possible the third, so each table frame is slanted to the end of the building. The board will travel to the end of the tables, and, if you build a deflector, as the board is about to over balance on the last table, it is deflected at a 90° to fall off the tables and stack themselves, sort of.

 If you ever get the sawhead to powered, you can have the sawhead slide the board back to you, and onto other roller tables, to go away from the work area.

 The heavy wheels, maybe you could replace them with narrow vehicle wheels ??  We used 13" trailer wheels with rubber tires. Easy to balance, just like car tires. Much lighter, also. Rubber tires give a "cushion" so the band will not be over stressed if a piece of bark or other debris gets between the tire and band.

 I am about to make a sawhead using motorcycle wheels and tires. We have a lot of smaller logs that will need to be sawn, and, I want to build a multi head machine, so, as the log goes through the machine, it gets sawn 2-3 or more times in 1 pass, sawing from the bottom up, rather than the top down. Boards will always be the same thickness, as long as bands are kept sharp and no metal or rocks to damage teeth.

 Build some track scrapers to keep the track AND wheels clean. Simple to build and makes things SO much easier. Power feed is what you need.

 Looking forward to photos. Glad you are happy with the work you did on the mill.  8) 8)

 Thanks for the info on the Spruce.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2013, 01:35:11 PM »

 The heavy wheels, maybe you could replace them with narrow vehicle wheels ??  We used 13" trailer wheels with rubber tires. Easy to balance, just like car tires. Much lighter, also. Rubber tires give a "cushion" so the band will not be over stressed if a piece of bark or other debris gets between the tire and band.

Hi, how you are living?  ;)
A lot of time run out , like i was here for a last time.
So i have one questions about tires. How much presure ust be in the tire?
One person said me ,that presure must be over 4bar (58psi) . Its real?
Thanks for answers.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2013, 03:25:03 PM »

 We put 45-50 PSI. (Sorry, don't know bars)

 It's amazing all the people that don't have a sawmill, have all the answers.  :o ::) ::)

 You are doing a great job. Just keep at it.

 Is there any updates ?? have you been sawing ??

 Good to see you back here.  ;D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2013, 03:39:23 AM »
No upgrades still. Only plans  ;D .
Not mush i saw. I have a job, so its to little time to saw. But i like to  construct, so i still planing to upgrade my sawmill.
Thank you for the good words.  ;)

Offline nk14zp

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #76 on: June 14, 2013, 05:42:36 AM »
What is the down side of having your band speed to high?  I ask because I am in the gathering stage(both info and parts) to build my own.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2013, 12:07:48 PM »

 Aside from MAYBE added heat to the blade from sawing hardwoods at an increased ft-minute of speed, I think that the blade fatigue from using 19" dia. pulley-wheels, on most mills is the reason to keep the speed down. It's a compromise for the factory, to keep the blade speed to where fatigue isn't happening sooner and getting lesser life out of the blade.

 You hear a lot of talk about blades breaking, whether in the welded area or in the gullet. If one keeps the gullets ground clean of micro cracks, one uses up the blade faster by grinding away metal increasing blade sales for the dealers-manufacturers.

 We built a mill using 24" outer diameter trailer wheels-tires. In over 200,000 bd'ft sawn, we never broke more than a couple blades. That was due to operator error, not blade fatigue.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2015, 11:51:54 AM »
Hi guys,
A long time I wasnt here. But I came back
So, how You are? How yours mills? Still a live?  ;D

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2015, 02:26:41 PM »
Alive and kicking!  Glad to have you back! 

Deer season around here so not much wood getting cut!
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2015, 11:56:47 AM »
You are hunter? I am not. Too little time i have. In my coutry no matter- deer season or not. No limitation for cuts. Only in spring, then birds are sitting on their eggs, not imposible to cut  ;D

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2015, 03:22:48 PM »
I have one question about wood sawing. Two years ago some logs i saw to planks- 8cm thickness (about 3 inches). That was birch and black alder. I put blanks inside garage. Now i want to saw those blanks to boards. Is big mistake to saw without water? ( I always used water to my blades).
Thanks.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2016, 05:22:57 PM »
 Good to see you back.  I type copy/paste. Keyboard is bad on computer.  >:(  use water as little as possible.

 Softens wood fibres.

Offline lauztuvass

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2016, 10:14:44 AM »
Thanks. Maybe some one have used diesel fuel  in practice?

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: about band speed
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2016, 05:34:06 PM »

 Bad idea on dry wood