BANG!

[4x4American]

Ahh, the sweet sound of a band snapping....

Yesterday and today I broke bands.  today I broke a Cook's Duratooth SS.  Both happened same way.  Was just finished one cut, and I was about to go in for the next cut, and then BANG.

Anyways, I want to figure out why the bands broke.  It was not very cold both days.  Yesterday in the teens today in the 20's.  (*F).

My first guess was that 1/4" of down psi might be too much, and the adjustable guide roller kept plugging up with sawdust worse than I've ever seen it.  Tried turning down lube, but then I'd get thick pitch build up.  Finally found the happy medium after awhile.

Next guess, is that my tracking was off.  I checked the tracking, and it seemed to be close enough.  It was sticking out around 1/16".  I turned the wheels 5 revolutions in the opposite direction, and the band went back until it started hitting the guide rollers.  It was cutting fine though.  

Anyways, could tracking cause bands to just up and break like that?

Both the bands only had one resharp on them.  And they were cutting well.

[John B]

Hi,
I tend to break blades myself. All blades break eventually.
How long do you run your blades before sharpening? Did the blades break at the weld?
I have started taking the tension off if the mill idles for more than a minute or two.
It seems like the blade will only last so long under tension, and only make so many trips around the wheel, even if the saw is not "in the wood".
I have experimented with down pressure and I'm running 1/4" also. I don't think 1/4" down pressure is causing blades to break.

I have started running my blades 90 minutes and then sharpening. This has (solved?) the problem, but I wish that I could run longer.

A cracked blade will make a (tick, tick tick) sound. I can usually shut it down before it goes BANG.

[4x4American]

I run them until they are dull.  It all depends, sometimes they can last 4 hours, other times they can last one cut.  They both didn't break at the weld joint.  I will take tension off the blade quite a bit throughout the day, but lately I've had a decent setup and am keeping the blade in the wood more, so less tension breaks for the band.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Two broken blades is a short time (especially after only one sharpening) is not normal.  I don't think that the 1/4" down pressure is the problem, more likely the distance from the guide roller flange.  I run 1/8" to 3/16" forward of the flange.  It sounds like your tracking is off if rolling it in reverse moves the band back against the flange.  Also, if you are running with a buildup of pitch, that buildup is creating friction in the kerf and friction creates heat.  I wouldn't be surprised if your band tension is decreasing slightly as the pitch (and therefore the heat) build up and stretches the band.  Didn't you also start increasing your blade tension?  I would check with Jason or Mike @ TK.

[mountainlake]

 The 2 biggest blade breakers are the guide wheel flange too close to the back of the blade and worn v belts.  If you are close to 300 hours check the belts , if the blade touches the metal on the wheel they will break fast.  The 1/16 behind the flange is not near enough, Cooks recommends 1/4" behind which I've been running for years with excellent results and every time mine get out of adjustment and too close I start breaking band fast. As Tom  said the 1/4" down pressure does not cause blades to break.  A couple other things, don't run your blade too dull as that will cause it to  push against the flange too hard and break blades and you should put on a good chip deflector on the fixed guide wheel to keep debris from getting between the blade and wheels.  These band mills can and do work real good when everything is set right.   Steve

[backwoods sawyer]

Build up on the wheels is a real blade life shortner.
On the WM mill there was no chip deflector and in some woods the water lube would allow heavy build up and I was getting short life out of my saws, so I took one of the diesel drip systems off the cooks mill and added it behind the fixed guide on the drive side. The added benefit is it works as a chip deflector as well. Now i can keep the saws clean in all woods by switching between a water spray and a diesel drip.   

[furu]

I increased my flange from 1/8 to 3/16+ after breaking a band that was starting to get less sharp and pushing it through the log too fast. 
I agree the 1/4 inch down should not be the problem. 
Check the flange spacing and ensure that there is no buildup on the belt of the band wheel.  Also make certain the belts are not wearing down. 
With your hours they should not be but don't let the blade touch the edge of the wheel.

[furu]

  Another thing, each time the band snapped, the band made its way up into that big expensive drive belt and cut grooves into it.  It also took some chunks out of the clutch.  Is this normal?

Is that drive belt available from anyplace other than TK.  Does yours have the part number and manufacturer on it still?   Any idea how much it is?

[Kirk Allen]

Most belts can be ordered from your local Napa dealer.  Woodmizer uses a B57 belt.  If you know the belt number just about any auto part store can get it.

[4x4American]

Furu- That big belt is a Goodyear FX90.  I would guess upwards of $125.

I've broken 3 blades in the past 3 days.  I have 120 hrs on my mill.  How can I test if my wheel belts need replaced?


Would the cold have anything to do with the bandwheels/guidewheels gumming up so much?  My guide roller was gumming up so bad that it was pushing down an extra 1/16".  

One thing that makes me so mad it just makes me want to drink turpentine and wizz on a brush fire is that every time a blade breaks, it throws something else off or breaks something.  Every time I break a blade, I've had to adjust tracking.  These guys made it so that when a blade breaks the spring will pull the bandwheel adjuster tube unit into the side support thingy, which would be fine, but they have it lined up so that it's hitting the adjuster nut!!!  (You would think that if they've been doing it since 1929 they'd have figured that part out).  Then I have to adjust tracking.  I also have to adjust the guide roller flatness everytime a blade breaks.  Today, Cook's Duratooth SS shattered at the end of a cut.  It sent pieces flying all over.  It only broke into 4 pieces, but it blew apart.

Endrant.

[4x4American]

Furu- the bandwheel belts are B56 Goodyears.  I think I once told you B55, I was wrong.

[4x4American]

I keep the flange space at 1/8" as per factory recommendations, I will try 3/16".  I have been changing blades very frequently now since I keep breaking them.

[Kirk Allen]

Try using cold weather windshield washer fluid with about half a bottle of Pine Sol to 5 gallons of fluid.  That keeps the pith build up down real well for me, assuming your mill has a drip system for the blade.   

[furu]

Furu- the bandwheel belts are B56 Goodyears.  I think I once told you B55, I was wrong.

I keep a spare set of the B56 belts for when I need them.

Furu- That big belt is a Goodyear FX90.  I would guess upwards of $125.

I've broken 3 blades in the past 3 days.  I have 120 hrs on my mill.  How can I test if my wheel belts need replaced?

My biggest problem right now is those dang paraffin block units that do the head up/down.  If they are too loose, my scale pointer unit is loosey goosey and my scale will be off anywheres from 1/8-1/4".  If they are too tight, the head binds up and I can't use my setworks because it's too jerky and it will make the head jump and it won't ever land in the right spot.  I can't find the sweet spot.  The dealer told me to use dry moly.  He said its better than sliced bread.  I was using teflon dry lube without any problems.  Just started using dry moly and nothing but problems.  Not good.  I will be welding my own pointer unit on asap, but no power by the mill, no portable welder, and I'm not unsetting up my mill when it's nice and froze in like for that.  I like the added stability of being froze to the ground.

Would the cold have anything to do with the bandwheels/guidewheels gumming up so much?  My guide roller was gumming up so bad that it was pushing down an extra 1/16". 

One thing that makes me so mad it just makes me want to drink turpentine and wizz on a brush fire is that every time a blade breaks, it throws something else off or breaks something.  Every time I break a blade, I've had to adjust tracking.  These guys made it so that when a blade breaks the spring will pull the bandwheel adjuster tube unit into the side support thingy, which would be fine, but they have it lined up so that it's hitting the adjuster nut!!!  (You would think that if they've been doing it since 1929 they'd have figured that part out).  Then I have to adjust tracking.  I also have to adjust the guide roller flatness everytime a blade breaks.  Today, Cook's Duratooth SS shattered at the end of a cut.  It sent pieces flying all over.  It only broke into 4 pieces, but it blew apart.

Thanks for the number on the drive belt.  FX 90 I will remember that.  Mine is worn off so that I can't read it.  Same with the hydraulic pump belt number.  Want to keep spares or at least the correct number so that I don't have to go to TK and pay the shipping each time something happens.

I have only broken one blade so far and it was loud and in 4 pieces but nothing too bad happened. Sounds like you have had some bad luck lately.  I am a bit uncertain as to the "paraffin block units that do the head up/down" that you are referencing.  I will have to look at the mill and see if I can figure it out.  Assume that they are the same on my model but maybe not.

Any chance that you are getting buildup on the wheel belts due to water from the lube freezing due to temperatures?

[mountainlake]

I keep the flange space at 1/8" as per factory recommendations, I will try 3/16".  I have been changing blades very frequently now since I keep breaking them.

 On any mill If you want your blades to last get those flanges 1/4 behind the blade and use diesel for lube below freezing as it keeps everything clean. Keep in mind you will still break your old blades as they have been damaged from running the flange too close or bad v belts.  On the TK 2000 the plastic blocks need a spacer between them so you can tighten the bolts holding them tight without clamping on the post(I thought TK had that fixed but I guess not) plus it would be good the shave just a bit off the side of the blocks the get a bit of clearance there also.  I think those blocks are the major reason why the setworks are off sometimes as the system is based on coast time after the valve closes and if those blocks bind sometimes the coast time will vary.  On the belts just make sure there is clearance between the blade and the wheel, at 120 hours they should be fine unless a broken blade ruined them.  We have 200 hours on my brothers TK2000 with no broken blades yet but it got adjusted right from the start with 1/4 " down pressure and the plastic shim on the movable guide, plus we put shims in those blocks right away making the setworks work good now.  TK should fix both of those thing plus set those guide wheels 1/4 back from the factory but it really doesn't take long to set it up right. On any mill that 1/16 or 1/8" back might work on a low HP mill with a 10* blade that doesn't push back much.  Steve

[4x4American]

Furu- once okay that was a typo that belt is a BX90.  It is worn pretty good on mine too, and at first glance it looked like an F.  BX90 is correct.  Long day it was yesterday...
I wouldn't think so about the water because I'm running 5 gal. straight washer fluid mixed with 2 cups of pinesol thats good to -22 or something like that.  

Thanks Steve.  The 1/4" down psi works great, so I will definitely try it on the flange lead.  Is there enough support when you run them 1/4" ahead of the flange?  My bandwheel belts could very well be smoked, because the blades have been eating little chunks out of them..  the band is still not touching the steel wheel though.  

Two thoughts on the band wheel belts- 1) What do you think about getting a Cook's full steel retrofit?  Then I wouldn't have belts on the wheels to worry about getting chewed up.  Also, I wonder if it would get plugged up less?  I have no experience with steel only so I don't know.

2) WM runs a loose belt setup.  Which looks like it would make it easy to change the belts.  I am tempted to give them a try.  

Good idea on the shim/spacer.  I will do that.  

When I had ordered my mill, they told me 4-6 weeks.  Once it got to 4 weeks and 7 weeks I put a call in to check on it.  Maybe they felt rushed and they rushed my mill?  

I like the design Larry did for his movable roller guide but honestly right now that's the least of my worries.

I keep having issues with the kubota too.  

[mountainlake]

 Tk needs to change their specs to 1/4 " down pressure and 1/4" behind the blade, WM has the 1/4" down pressure but have 1/16 on one side and 1/8 behind the blade on the other side which also need to be changed to 1/4 back as Cooks recommends and results in long blade life.  So long as your blades don't touch the wheel their OK.   Over here I don't break blades very often and most times they don't cut the v belts but I've had couple that smoked the belt good, you could try loose belts but over on the FF it sound like there's a better chance of ruining a belt with loose belts.  I've never ran Cooks steel wheels and hear mostly good about them  . Also get a good chip deflector on as I think it's hard on blades when debris get between the wheels and blade.   What's the Kubota doing, one of the best small diesels made I think.   Steve

[mountainlake]

Steve does your brothers 2000 have the problem with the loading arms where they raise and lower at different speeds?

 Yes and so does my B20 , more so if the log is off centered.  Steve

[4x4American]

It is a cold blooded girl.  Lately, I'll be going through a cut, and then all of a sudden you feel a loud thunder like noise and then all hell breaks loose.  It will lose power and scream and sputter and just be a bad kitten.  I think it's a fuel gel problem.  I had to replace filter and diesel 911 it the other day.  It still should have some 911 left in it.  When it did the thunder-scream-belch thing yesterday I dumped in some Stanadyne fuel treatment and it went away.  For now.  But it still don't change how hard it is to start.  It takes 4-5 cycles of glow plugs to get it to start.  And if you don't let it rev up for 20 seconds it will die if you try to bring it back to idle.

[John B]

What do you think about getting a Cook's full steel retrofit?  Then I wouldn't have belts on the wheels to worry about getting chewed up.

Broken bands chew up steel band wheels almost as fast as rubber belts.  

I have several "chunks" missing out of my drive wheel and need to replace it.
I'm not looking forward to spending $900 + on a new 30" band wheel.

I am going to add plywood to the inside of my band wheel covers.
My last mill had plywood covers and they would stop broken blades without damage to anyone or anything else.

[mountainlake]

It is a cold blooded girl.  Lately, I'll be going through a cut, and then all of a sudden you feel a loud thunder like noise and then all hell breaks loose.  It will lose power and scream and sputter and just be a bad kitten.  I think it's a fuel gel problem.  I had to replace filter and diesel 911 it the other day.  It still should have some 911 left in it.  When it did the thunder-scream-belch thing yesterday I dumped in some Stanadyne fuel treatment and it went away.  For now.  But it still don't change how hard it is to start.  It takes 4-5 cycles of glow plugs to get it to start.  And if you don't let it rev up for 20 seconds it will die if you try to bring it back to idle.

  I do put in 911 most times when cold.The fuel we get now days is crap and likes to jell easy, how cold are you sawing at.  My Isuzu will start at 0 F or so, I glow plug it for about 25 second but keep the glow on while cranking it which really helps. It is set up with a manual switch to run the glow plugs.  Steve

[John B]

Thanks John B for the input.

Can you get the wheel machined?

Welded, machined, and balanced - possibly.
A broken blade does a lot more damage to the band wheel than you would think.

My band wheels are about 200 lbs each.
LTL freight to send it out and have it welded and recrowned is $180 each way.
I am going to have a friend pick up a new one in TX and bring it up when he comes to visit in April. I'll send the old wheel back with him to get re crowned, and he'll bring it back at Christmas. Then I'll have a spare.

[furu]

It is a cold blooded girl.  Lately, I'll be going through a cut, and then all of a sudden you feel a loud thunder like noise and then all hell breaks loose.  It will lose power and scream and sputter and just be a bad kitten.  I think it's a fuel gel problem.  I had to replace filter and diesel 911 it the other day.  It still should have some 911 left in it.  When it did the thunder-scream-belch thing yesterday I dumped in some Stanadyne fuel treatment and it went away.  For now.  But it still don't change how hard it is to start.  It takes 4-5 cycles of glow plugs to get it to start.  And if you don't let it rev up for 20 seconds it will die if you try to bring it back to idle.

My Kubota is the big brother to yours. (V2403+ bunch of suffixes)
Once I resolved the fuel tank air leak issue it has been flawless (as long as I don't run it out of fuel)  If it even thinks of sucking air it runs horrible or does not run for a bit until the air is purged.  The purging process is not as smooth as the manual would make you think either.

With your temps I wonder if it is able to suck air with the gel in the fuel and that is the root cause?  You did not have the problem last fall before the temps dropped did you?  
Are they selling pure dino diesel or B5 diesel in your area?

[4x4American]

Ever since the temps got below 50 the kubota has been hard to start.  Except for the aforementioned issues, it runs like a song once it is running, warm, and gel-free. 

I am not sure what type of diesel they sell, but it has been giving my pickup and mill problems.  Tractor has been fine (knock on wood). 

John B-  Is there not a local machine shop that can do it?

Steve-  I don't know exactly how cold I'm sawing at because I don't trust my thermometer, it is always different than what the local weather station reads, but I would say my sawing has been in the 0-20 degree range.  I don't start bright and early because for one the neighbors are close by and I don't need to give them a reason, and also I try to let it warm up a bit so that the engine will start.  Also it takes quite awhile to warm up the hydraulics on the mill.  I let it run on high idle with the chain turner pinned spinning around that has been working out the best for me thus far. 

[mountainlake]

 My Isuzu has a Carter electric fuel pump, those work good.  Even if I run it out just turn the key on and let the pump run for a minute or 2 and it get the air out of the system.  Steve