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Author Topic: blade levelling  (Read 23891 times)

Offline Plowboy

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blade levelling
« on: November 23, 2016, 06:35:52 AM »
Hi

How do you folks check that your blade is level from front to back. I have seen a tool to attach to the blade but wondered how important it is and if there was another way.

Thanks
Arnie

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 10:56:41 AM »
 If your bunks are not level, it makes no difference whether the blade is level or not. You need the blade in parallel with the bunks.

 Simple way is saw a board and watch carefully if the blade jumps up or down as it leaves the cut. If so, it's possibly not parallel with the bunks. If you can get the bunks perfectly level, you can take a straight piece of lightweight wood and lay it across the blade at the 3rd tooth location (no set), and gently balance the level on that stick. Watch carefully that you don't accidentally change the plane of the blade when setting the stick and level on the blade.

 Any slight sharpening error can make the blade rise or fall in the cut.  I just always eyeballed the sawing. I never worried about perfectly leveling the mill. If it's a decent mill, it's sturdy enough to not be affected by out of level.

 Your blade guides can correct a slight up or down as the blade cuts. Do you use a little down pressure on the blade with your guides ?  It's all about paying attention.

 Ever have your mill settle a little into the ground ?? So much for leveling. 

Offline Plowboy

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 01:30:38 PM »
Thanks
Harold

You are right, I meant parallel with the bed not level. I actually try to set mine running a bit downhill because mine in manual.
When my blade exits the cut it quite often drops. It never goes up when exiting the cut. If I have a new blade it may not drop but I seem to go dull very quickly.
And you are also right, sometimes when I drop a large log, the mill sinks. Would be mill setup contribute to blade wandering?
Yes I use quite a bit of down pressure. in order to get the blade low enough to cut the final board 1" I need to lower the blade guides over 1/2". I have an old Canadian Boardmaster mill and can find no documentation on it or find anyone else that has one. I have electric height adjust and electric carriage return but I cut manually.
I will try your method for leveling, I am thinking a line level would work if the bed is level.
I have been trying to sharpen the blades manually with a dremmel with very limited success. In this area we pay $40 per blade and $20 to sharpen. It seems that within 1/2 hour I am pushing very hard and the blade is wandering at knots, especially when cutting the first cuts, when the blade gets closer to the outside due to taper or bend.
Guess this should be a new topic but has anyone had success hand sharpening? I see videos on youtube from people that claim they are and it doesn't look very difficult if you have a steady enough hand and are consistent from tooth to tooth.

Thanks again

Online Kirk Allen

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2016, 04:21:11 PM »
An alignment gauge is what is used but any straight edge clamped on the blade will work.  center the straight edge on the blade and measure the ends of the gauge to the deck.  They should be the same.  If one side is high, the other will be low.  Adjust the roller guilds until you have them equal.

This is a good video on getting it right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDcmW2IgFXg
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 05:28:14 PM »
 If you are talking line level laid across the blade, it's not long enough for accuracy. If using with a string, forget that.

 I believe you have stated your problem with dremel sharpening. Just isn't possible. It's OK for touching up a couple of metal hit teeth, that's all.

 Sounds like a sharpener needs to land under your tree next month, unless you only saw a couple hundred boardfeet once a month or so. Used ones can be had if you look hard enough.

 Where do you live ?? 40 bucks for blades is ridiculous, unless they are 250" long or more. Ask around for possible clients and buy a decent sharpener and put the other guy out of business. 10 bucks for sharpening is high enough. I did some for $8.00 for a client.

 I just googled your mill and checked images. Do you have roller blade guides or solid metal ? Solid metal are you striking tooth tips at times ?  1/2" down pressure is pretty excessive. Most of us use 1/4" max down pressure, I use 1/8".

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 07:25:30 PM »
I have a small very accurate L S Starett  machinists level I check the band with. My bandmill is stationary on a good concrete floor level and plumb all ways, sure makes it easier to check and adjust things. Plowboy Timberwolf had plans they would send and I think now they have a video about sharpening bands on a bench grinder. I did it for a wile and it work well only tiring on your wrists. You shape the grinding wheel and it cleans the gullet too. Frank C.

Offline xlogger

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2016, 04:26:35 AM »
Cook's has a tool that helps level the blade to the mill. It clamps on the blade and you use a long level from bunk to bunk under it. Measure from back of the tool to top of level and the same in the front.

Offline furu

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2016, 11:23:42 AM »
Cook's has a tool that helps level the blade to the mill. It clamps on the blade and you use a long level from bunk to bunk under it. Measure from back of the tool to top of level and the same in the front.

I have one of the Cook's tool.  Real nice and not very much money.
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2016, 07:48:47 PM »
Plowboy,

I tried several different methods of checking that my blade was parallel before buying the Cook's tool  It is well worth the little bit that it costs.  I agree that $40 per blade, and $20 sharpening seems high.  My blades are 150" and run just under $14 each + shipping.  For the first couple of years I used a sharpening service and they were almost always properly done.  They had some difficulty getting them back on time and I started looking for my own equipment - so glad that I did.

Aligning a mill, and performing blade service, are two distinctly different skills.  Taking on both learning curves at the same time can be daunting, especially if you are trying to run a business.  Problems are compounded when you don't have accurate tools.  Yes, you can sharpen a bandsaw blade by hand... it won't be accurate but it'll be sharp.  A sharp blade will still dive if the set is off, or maybe it is the guide rollers, or maybe it is the tension, or maybe the drive belt is slipping, etc., etc.   

It is my opinion that blade service requires a magnifying lens and a dial indicator, in addition to a sharpener and a setter.  The devices can be home-made, or quite expensive - however you do it, when you get done you need to know that the tips are sharp and that the set is accurate/consistent.  Ditto with the mill adjustments.  Most mills have an alignment procedure.  If you don't follow it you can screw things up (guess how I know  >:(

Long ago I started a day having problems with a wavy cut.  The blade was just back from the sharpening service so I thought it had to be something with the mill.  Nothing had apparently broken so I tried to adjust it out - just got worse.  Then the blade broke.  Undid my adjustments and put on another blade - cut perfectly.  Started looking at the broken blade and found that it had no set in one direction.  I think what happened was that the number of teeth was not an increment of 3 and that it went around more than once on the setting machine.  The second blade was properly set and I didn't have a problem. 

Perhaps I am more sensitive to these issues because almost every cut I make is for a client, with them usually standing there watching.  Plus, most of my work is on the road and hauling the mill over bumpy roads, gravel, curbs and through fields, setting it up and packing up to go home; it can be challenging to keeping it properly adjusted (I get a lot of practice).
     
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Offline Stevem

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 01:05:24 AM »
I'm new at band milling so for what it's worth:

TK says level the mill both directions first, then check the blade for level both directions without any down pressure. I am using a 12" magnetic bullet level.  With my mill (TK1600), if the blade is out of level side to side there is adjustments to either raise or lower one side or the other.  Mine is a chain length adjustments but it could wheels I guess.  I can also lower (or raise) those chains evenly to get bed clearance (1" for TK) after down pressure is applied.
Down pressure is applied using 1/4"-20 bolts (1/4" diameter 20 threads per inch, USS thread) on the roller guides.  2 1/2 turns gives you exactly 1/8" down pressure.
Check blade for level again after down tensions is applied,  If it's not still level fore and aft then the guides are pushing the blade out of alignment and need to be adjusted, tilted, to correct.  If the tilt is adjusted you need to redo the down pressure adjustment.

The base under the saw needs to be rock solid.  Even the head rigs needed solid.  The only part left of lots of old mills around here is the massive chunk of cement that was under the head rig.

This is strange but my delivered mill had an upward cant to the blade.  It would enter the log and start upward then go back down and then level out as the blade went through the log.  Haven't figured out how it could cut a straight line with that error but when I finally figured out how to adjust the blade my fuel consumption went down by half and I break a lot fewer blades.

South Eastern Metals will ship 28 blades with free shipping:  http://semetals.net/#home-fsslider/  Choice of several different manufactures.
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Offline xlogger

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 05:38:10 AM »
Stevem, when you checked you level without any down pressure, did you have to tilt your bandwheels to make it travel flat into the log and then set your down pressure? I break more blades that I should and can't figure it out. Something is off and I can't find it. But I've never check the blade level or tilted without down pressure. I've got it set 1/4 down and 1/4 off flange of guide rollers and good belts on wheels. I do have a TK2000.

Offline Plowboy

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 06:31:04 AM »
Thank you all for the advice, I greatly appreciate it all.
This gets very confusing for a newbie, especially one that bought an old mill with no documentation.
Some people say if you have a sharp blade you cut straight and setup is not critical and others say setup is critical. Some say you can hand sharpen and some say it isn't possible.
My guess is somewhere in the middle for both I was hoping to be able to sharpen a few times and them get them sharpened properly. My blades seem to dull very quickly for some reason. Quite often my blade goes up within the first 3 or 4 inches and then cuts straight, When the blade exits the cut it drops.
I push the blade down 5/8 because I need to do that in order to cut a one inch board at the bottom of the cant, This is very strange and cannot figure out why. I could go back up to 1/4 and cut 1-1/2" boards at the bottom and see if that is part of the issue.
I am in Canada and everything is crazy price. With the Canadian dollar gone for a crap it makes US stuff expensive. Shipping 10 blades cost $40 each way wich makes sending them to be sharpened craxy.
I cannot get any hits from google on my Canadian Boardmaster sawmill model 20-30-18 (20 foot bed, 30 inch diameter cut and 18 hp}. If someone could send me a link I would appreciate it.
It had sat for years when I bought it and it had one blade guide wich was a Carter model 20 wich is not meant for saw mills. I don't know what it originally came with. Should I get another roller guide for the drive side?
My blade pressure is set manually using a handle wich turns a screw. Once the blade dulls it doesn't seem to matter how much pressure you put on it I cut wavy.
I also have something strange going on. once the blade gets dull it tends to ride forward giving about a 3/8 space between the blade guide stops. I am thinking maybe because I am applying to much blade pressure? A new blade always rides in the same place.
My idler wheel has a bit of wooble, I have heard this is critical.
Noticed something in the setup video, you need to adjust the roller guides so the leading edge contacts the blade first. I didn't know that.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 07:52:35 AM »
 I am not the resident expert on all band mills. My son and I built an oversized wood mizer type mill, and successfully milled Live Oak, which is the only hard wood ever used for plating the sides of a wooden military battleship, that effectively stopped cannonballs from destroying the ship.

 We build the mill using a photo of a woodmizer lt40 model. I had asked woodmizer for a sample blade in our measurements of 158" length. After getting the mill running, we could never get that blade to work. We ended up with tooth marks being lagging from one side of the cut to the other, approximately 3" difference, the far side from the drive wheel being lagging.  We measured, eyeballed during the cut, and simply went crazy trying to figure this out. I also has received a Suffolk "timberwolf" blade, that did work much better. However, we still had many issues. Pure luck brought us to trying a Munksforsager blade, and, it was like we had a totally different mill.

 Can I assume you have "V" belts for the blade to ride on ??  If so, get new ones installed. Can you post some photos for us to help diagnose your problems ??

 OK, first thing is, you have way too much downforce. 1/8" is practically what everyone runs, +/- 1/16th.

 Second thing, you must have a bearing issue on the idler wheel. It should NOT have any play/sloppyness, period. If you are mechanically inclined, take that wheel and try to adjust the slack. You may need to replace the bearings. Be sure the spindle/axle is not damaged.
 Once you have that taken care of, set the mill as exactly level as possible, both length wise and cross wise.

 NOW, take a level and put it up against the drive wheel standing up and down. Make that "plumb". Then, do the same with the idler wheel. They have to be as near identical as possible.

 Once that is done, take a string and fasten it to the complete outer edge of the drive wheel, so it can be stretched across the face of the wheel and over to the idler wheel. VERY CAREFULLY, move the string toward the drive wheel until it either touches both edges of the wheel or it touches one edge or the other of the idler wheel instead. You may need someone to help do this.

 This is to see if both wheels are "in alignment" same as alignment on a car. If these are not perfectly in line, do whatever it takes to accomplish this. You may have adjustments, need to add shims, etc. to do this. It might be in the adjustment of the tension mechanism being sloppy or something.

 This will also allow you to run the blade very close to the guide flanges or backing of the guide blocks. Most of us have 1/16" of clearance or less, from the back of the blade to the roller guide flanges. You do have 2 guides, correct ?? Are they solid blocks or rollers ?? You also run water on the blade, correct ??

 Until you have all this done correctly, you will not be able to fine tune your mill. When someone buys a mill, it should be set up correctly, BUT, when someone builds a mill, they REALLY learn from scratch. This is why I recommend following what I posted. Others may have different approaches, but, do these things first, then we can all bang heads on how to proceed.  :laugh: :laugh:

 Do this, then, report back. We can work on last board thickness, then.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 05:18:48 AM »
 Harold

 I have to disagree on a couple of things, my mill came with 1/8" down pressure and sawed way straighter when I switched to 1/4" down pressure as both Cooks and WM recommend

 I run the blade guide flange 1/4 behind the blade as Cooks recommends , every time my mills get out of tune and the flange get too close to the back of the blade I start breaking blades real fast.  You might get by with a little closer with a low hp mill running 10 degree blades sawing slow as they wouldn't push back near as hard as a high hp mill running less hook and sawing fast..   Steve 
 

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 06:47:38 AM »

 Hi mountainlake. You are probably correct if you are running a high ? powered mill. I have no knowledge about Perkins, Cat, or whatever high HP mills are out there.

 Maybe we need to break this down some ?

 We had a 24Hp Honda engine. I bumped the governor as often as I could. Sometimes, I could not get the governor to really grunt no matter how fast the blade moved through the wood.

 Please state what engine/HP you are running, and we need plowboy to speak up on what he is running.

Offline Stevem

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2016, 10:27:01 AM »
Stevem, when you checked you level without any down pressure, did you have to tilt your bandwheels to make it travel flat into the log and then set your down pressure? I break more blades that I should and can't figure it out. Something is off and I can't find it. But I've never check the blade level or tilted without down pressure. I've got it set 1/4 down and 1/4 off flange of guide rollers and good belts on wheels. I do have a TK2000.

As near as I can figure out the rollers cannot compensate for an out of level wheel(s) but only are supposed to provide down pressure and a stop for backward movement of the blade in the cut.  Miss adjusted they will tilt the blade and cause lots of problems.  The blade will tend to run on the plan of the wheels, not the rollers. If the blade wanders downward it's off the rollers and dependent on what the wheels are set at.
 
I have not moved my band wheels at all but the mill has less than 400 hours so no wear factor to consider.  The direction in "The Book" are really written tight and I have had to study them closely to understand what they were saying.  Sequence is everything.  A clue I missed was that the rollers were not shinny all the way across because the blade was not riding on them evenly in the cut.  Out of the factory the drive side roller bracket mounted to the frame was mounted incorrectly not providing enough down pressure adjustment.  Had to move the bracket down and then the roller up to get the proper adjustment range as the down pressure bolt was maxed out.  And I have bent the drive side roller bracket and had to readjust to compensate. 
The band wheels need to be vertical to the bed under tension, parallel to each other and in the same plane (string trick ala Harold).
I consider Harold an expert on band mills and listen to him closely.  Expert I am not.     
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 10:42:28 AM by Stevem »
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2016, 11:06:32 AM »

 Thanks Steve, but, no expert here. As I wrote, we built from scratch 15 years ago, when the common notion was "you can't build a portable band mill" was all we heard. We did have some helpful advice, but, mostly had to figure stuff out, in the field.

 I figure if plowboy wants to follow what I wrote, we can all help him get the mill purring like a polecat.  ;D

 Once he gets things sorted, then we can concentrate on the guides. As of yet, he has 1 and we don't know if it's a block of metal or a roller type.

 I once saw a mill of someone I had a lot of confidence in, and the roller guide wheels were tapered  :o ?? from bad adjustment.  This was the woodmizer and Cooks type guides. We put Cooks on the portable and I have another set here for the stationary, if I ever get it built. Would have been a better project to build a damn submarine. From all the rain we are getting, I am so far behind, I am going to tear up the list and start over.  ::)

Offline mountainlake

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2016, 12:27:25 PM »
 I'm running a 30 HP Isuzu diesel and push it hard enough to make it smoke once in a while with 1 1/4  .42 3/4 pitch 4 degree  blades which saw straight until rather dull with 1/4" down pressure .  I think the people at Cooks are the best at figuring out what saws the best and they recommend 1/4" down pressure with the flange 1/4 behind the blade which I use and saw straight with excellent blade life.  My mill came with a 27hp Kohler that was way under powered in wide cuts in hard wood.   Steve

Offline mountainlake

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2016, 04:28:49 PM »
   roller guide wheels were tapered
 They do wear tapered after lots of hours, just normal.  If one could keep them adjusted exactly at 90 degrees to the blade they might not wear tapered, WM like the exit side of the flange to hit before the entry side which would pull the blade up rather than push it down which I try to do but that angle the guide just a bit to the blade causing the tapered wear.  As my guide wheel get tapered I have to tilt them down to get the blade back to level with deck and I need to check that real soon.  Steve

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2016, 05:27:09 PM »
Up to a point I agree with your roller guide description. However, We used trailer wheels and tires and did not have excessive tension on the blade like WM and others want. We managed to get things right on and only had to change bearings out in the rollers about 3 times. I can't back up what I am about to say, but, I would bet we had less than 1/32" of taper on our rollers. We sold the mill, so, can't verify. That was an estimated 200,000 bd/ft of mostly sinker logs.

 I agree with the trailing edge of the flange just touching the blade.  If 1/4" of down tension works, that's fine. We didn't need that much.

 I did all the blade sharpening and setting and was very diligent in getting things right.

 Also, we used the Munks blades as I said before, and they are stiffer than WM, Lenox, and the wimpy Suffolk blades. That might have some effect on our setup also.

 Your 3/4 pitch and 4 degree is interesting. We used 8 degree as a happy medium because we cut soft wood as well as really hard wood and it all went fine. We also cut a LOT of really fine white sand from the logs being retrieved from the river bottoms.

Offline Plowboy

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2016, 10:27:43 AM »
I have a Canadian Board master sawmill made before 1990, it has an 18hp B&S horizontal twin, 19" wheel with loose belts.
I have raised the blade guides to 1/8-1/4 down and leveled them. The blade is tracking very well where it should be (back of blade even with back of wheel).
blade is tracking  the same on both wheels.
The mill had not been used in several years when I bought it at an estate auction and it was pretty seized
The idler wheel is connected to the shaft with taper lock bushings. I had the wheel off shortly after buying and when I was putting it back on I tightened to tight or uneven and cracked the wheel.
I welded it and thought it would be fine. It has had a slight wobble since I started using it and it is probably caused by the break and weld. I am now thinking that is a big part of my issue.
Can you have any wobble at all in the wheels? The wooble does transfer to the blade, it moves back and forth. If you put something against the back of the blade when moving it chatters.
I read on the Sullfolk blade website that the blade moving up in the first 4 or 6 inches, then cutting straight till it drops back down when exiting the cut is due to to much hook angle.
I have also heard a few people say that they went through a lot of blades till the started sawing faster. Does the cutting speed really make a difference? I am pushing manually and probably am over cautious and go slower than I may be able to. As the blade dulls I cut really slow because it gets very hard to push.
Again, thanks for all the advice, there seems to be a lot more to milling than buying multi purpose blades and pushing them through a log.
I have cut about 4000 bf of oak and 2000 bf of whit pine so far. Probably gone through 20 blades.


Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »

 How much wobble in the idler wheel ? 1/16" or so out would be the max allowable in my opinion. If it causes the blade to move fore and aft, I would take it off, cut it at/through the weld and "V" it out. Weld it slightly under heavy pressure on the wheel to keep it flat. Let it cool each time, turn it over and weld the other side, slightly. Do this several times, allowing it to cool sufficiently. Each time, check for flatness and reclamp to weld.

 Others may not agree, but, I was told a blade should nearly pull the sawhead through the log, by itself. Ours required a little help, except in very hard wood. When the saw is cutting, you should be able to make the governor grunt, to feed more fuel to the engine.

 When sawing, I always found the sawyer to need to "feel" the blade cutting and proceed as required. It's not a run the blade hell bent for the other end of the log situation.

 Are the bed bunks adjustable, to allow the 1" board as the last cut ? If not, you can add strips on top of the bunks and bolt them down, being sure you can NEVER hit the bolt heads. We put stainless caps on each bunks, to stop the wood from getting blue stripes from mild steel bunks and the acid in the wood.

 Sounds like you made progress with adjusting the guides. That's a good thing. Keep at it. 8)

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2016, 07:14:29 PM »
Plowboy cutting speed makes a difference  as Harold said listen to your engine it sound like its under load but not loosing speed. My band mill has a three phase 15hp Baldor electric motor its hard to tell it just buckles down and pulls the band through. Too slow a feed will dull the band teeth faster because its like cutting a lot more logs. Best to run the feed as fast as you can without bogging the engine or band climb or dive. Frank C.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2016, 05:06:51 AM »

 I read on the Sullfolk blade website that the blade moving up in the first 4 or 6 inches, then cutting straight till it drops back down when exiting the cut is due to to much hook angle. 

  I've found the same thing, I buy my blades with a 10* hook ( can't get at 4* or I would) then sharpen to 4*.  With the new 10* blades soon as they're at all dull they climb at first then level out.  My sharpened 4* blades are way better at cutting straight until really dull.  Steve

Offline Stevem

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 11:47:31 AM »
Cooks has some 7 degree blades available!
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 04:34:28 PM »


  I've tried quite a few brands    and always come back to Simonds which cut straight, take a lot of sharpening and set easy Plus only cost $13.50 for 150"  1 1/4 .042  but I can only get them in 10* which work fine in easy to saw wood.  Steve

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2016, 06:42:09 AM »
I have tried most of the major brads of bands and have been happy with all. My preferred bands are Suffolk timberwolf 1 1/2" they come 10 degree but after the first touch up are about 6 degree. Frank C.

Offline 4x4American

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Re: blade levelling
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 09:46:57 PM »
I have one of the Cook's tool.  Real nice and not very much money.

I have both the Cook's tool and the WM alignment tool.  The WM one is quicker and more sturdy, plus no tools involved.  They both work, but I haven't touched the Cook's one ever since I got the WM. 
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