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Author Topic: Band rolling  (Read 17311 times)

Offline bandmiller2

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Band rolling
« on: September 19, 2017, 06:53:30 PM »
Are any of you sawmilling studs using a Cooks band roller to flatten the bands. Some claim its valuable others claim its unnecessary. I built my bandmill in the mid eighties and lived happily never worrying about rolling bands to flatten them. I'am running 19" belted wheels with 1 1/2" bands. I sharpen the bands on my Cats Claw about a dozen times. When the bands reach 1 1/4" they start to dive. They have ether started to curve or I've ground down the hardened section of the tooth. Just wondering if I could squeeze a few more board feet out by rolling them. Jeeze  guys Kirk has given us a forum where we can "live free" we should be using it more. Frank C.

Offline furu

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 08:05:03 PM »
I agree with your last sentence and wish we got more conversations going.  My problem is I don't really consider much that I do that interesting and the things I post don't seem to generate much followup posting.  You creative, outgoing, interesting guys need to post more.

Now to the point of your post. 
I have a Cook's band roller and I have not yet convinced myself that it does much for me one way or the other but I am still a newbie compared to many of the more experienced folks out there.  I have read where others say it is much more important for those running metal wheels than it is for those using belted wheels.  Maybe that is why I am not yet convinced.  I know watching the videos that Tim Cook put out on the roller, he has a very convincing argument  but he does not address its value in metal vs belted wheels mills as Cook's only do metal crowned wheels.
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 05:07:59 AM »

Seems like most that run 1 1/4 bands say its not needed including me and some running 1 1/2 blades say it is needed. Frank you could send a couple of blades that don't cut good and get them rolled and see if it helps rather than going through the expense of buying or building a roller.   Steve 

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 07:42:03 PM »
I use 1 1/4" and have never rolled one.  Not sure if its worth it or not.  I sharpen my own and seem to get about 1500-2000 BF out of a blade before it's shot.   Depending on the wood, about 3-400 bf before needing to be sharpened.  I did manage to get just over 3500 BF out of 1 blade by sharpening it every 300bf. 
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Offline Stevem

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 07:52:22 PM »
I've read the Cooks info on rolling and it sounds good but it strikes me as marginal.  Probably a gain but at what price?
Where I'm at it cost about $12 to ship a blade out and return and $7-$8 to have them sharpened (and rolled?)
I can buy new blades for about $14 each and get free shipping if I buy 28 blades from South East Metals (SEmetals.net).
If I get 3 sharpenings or 4 if I set the blade I feel I'm money and time ahead with the cheaper blades and they've got three or four brands of blades.
Just saying.
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 03:34:36 PM »

 I haven't found any blade the performs better than a Simonds red streak from SEM. they cost me less than $13.50 as mine are 12'  6"   Steve

Offline Stevem

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 08:04:05 PM »
Quote
I haven't found any blade the performs better than a Simonds red streak from SEM. they cost me less than $13.50 as mine are 12'  6"
Quote
13'2" (158") x 1" x 035
YOUR CHOICE OF BRAND!
Lenox Woodmaster C – Simonds Redstreak
Wood-Mizer SilverTip - Dakin Flathers Ripper S
(Packed 44 to a box)
$9.99 EA. DELIVERED!

Less than $10 each in box quantity at SE Metals. 
Stevem
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Offline jake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2017, 08:21:50 PM »
I'm sending my bands to a guy in WV. He's a Kasco rep. He says he can take a band that's not performing, reset the band and roll the band, without sharpening the band, put the band back on the saw and it will perform just fine. For what it's worth. I should be getting my first box back from him in a week or so, we'll see if they perform better than they have from WM resharp. At least I will get the right hook angle back, I hope  ;). I would love to go back to Simonds, I like them a lot. But I gave up sharpening my own bands for now and am at the mercy of those I can find to sharpen. Anyone know of someone who can sharpen Simonds from 10 degree to 4 degree? Maybe this guy in WV can, haven't asked yet. Thanks, Jake.

Offline Stevem

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2017, 08:59:54 PM »
oops
Stevem
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2017, 07:01:02 AM »
Jake, what soured you on sharpening your own bands.?? I have never sent a band out to be sharpened. For years I used a bench grinder with a shaped wheel, OK but tiring, then I bought a Cats Claw, hog heaven. Frank C.

Offline jake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2017, 07:13:01 AM »
When I bought my mill, it came with a WM drag sharpener. Has the 1030 cam. I used 1030 WM for a while, but I've found better and cheaper bands. I like Simonds, but can't get 4 degree, so right now I'm using mostly Kasco 4s and 10s. My sharpener is setup to do the Kasco 10s because Kasco uses the WM 1030 profile. I haven't tried sharpening the Kasco 4s, but I imagine it's only a matter of tipping the rock to 4 degrees instead of 10, and the 1030 cam would probably work for the Kasco 4s. So to answer your question, it's a matter of not enough time. I run a very small sawmill operation as a side business. I do portable jobs, and I harvest my own trees and sell lumber. Between sawing and logging, and the good ole full time job that keeps getting in my way, I just don't want to spend the time sharpening. I've heard great things about the Cats Claw, maybe that would change my mind by decreasing the time to sharpen, not sure. But that's where I'm at. I would love to do what mountainlake does ... buy Simonds 10 deg for less than $14 a pop and resharpen them myself to 4 deg. Right now, my band expense is .04-.06 per bft. When I was sharpening I had it closer to .02.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2017, 07:10:56 PM »
Jake, with your schedule you don't have enough time to get into mischief. I'am no expert but I believe too much time is spent worrying about cams and exact duplication of gullet contours. My go to bands are Timberwolf, I like their gullet shape and all my bands regardless of manufacturer end up with it. Only time I change cams is when a customer brings me some of those short tooth bands. I have a cam for Simonds, I like there profile and bands. Jake just for chuckles why don't you use the cam you have set it at 4 degrees and try it. Every band you sharpen your putting folding money back in your pocket. When your sharpening enjoy a beer and/or cigar. You have the machine that's 90% of the battle. Frank C.

Offline jake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2017, 07:37:03 PM »
Frank, that's encouraging because, besides not having the time, I tend to over think things and you're probably right I should just worry about it less and make time. I've yet to try Timberwolf. Thought about it a few times, and even called them once, but I think they don't have any 4 degree bands. Maybe this winter I'll get the sharpener going at 4 degree and give it another try, always looking for an excuse to enjoy a beer, and saving some money could provide more beer  :laugh:.

Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 06:09:13 PM »

 ... Some claim its valuable others claim its unnecessary.


bandmiller,

The value of addressing blade flatness is quite valuable.  Yes, there are many that say it is not necessary, and many more that say they've never had to do it.  Several have even said it's an old wives tale.

Being in the business I am, it is necessary.  BUT, only if the blade has curvature issues.  If the blade is fine, not needed.  I can assure you though, you take a blade that isn't flat and attempt to saw, even semi-productively, it makes for some crappy lumber.  Take that same blade, ONLY address curvature and put it back on the mill and you'd be shocked at the performance improvement.  Combine that with a blade properly ground (maintaining original profile) and the appropriate amount of set, that blade will perform better than new.

Steel wheels ARE NOT the reason blades need rolled.  Steel wheels can actually help the issue.  This is more apparent in the 1-1/2 and wider blades.

Some brands are worse about flatness than others, either new or shortly after being run.  Timberwolf and Norwood blades being at the top of the list, Cooks a very close second.  Conversely though, a sawyer who pushes their blades past being dull to squeeze a few more bd.ft. out can do as much, if not more damage to what was a perfectly good blade.

Hope this helps shed a little light on the subject.

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Offline furu

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 01:39:52 AM »


Some brands are worse about flatness than others, either new or shortly after being run.  Timberwolf and Norwood blades being at the top of the list, Cooks a very close second.  Conversely though, a sawyer who pushes their blades past being dull to squeeze a few more bd.ft. out can do as much, if not more damage to what was a perfectly good blade.

Hope this helps shed a little light on the subject.



For those of us that are not certain exactly what you mean by being at the "top of the list", I have a question.

Are you saying that "Timberwolf and Norwood blades being at the top of the list, Cooks a very close second" are the brands that are the worst about curvature forming compared to others, or are they the ones that are  less likely to form curvature when you state "being at the top of the list"?

Put another way are Timberwolf and Norwood and then Cooks the blades than need rolling the most or the least?
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Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 03:30:46 AM »

Are you saying that "Timberwolf and Norwood blades being at the top of the list, Cooks a very close second" are the brands that are the worst about curvature forming compared to others,

Put another way are Timberwolf and Norwood and then Cooks the blades than need rolling the most or the least?



IMO, Yes.


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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 06:05:20 AM »
Mr. Cutting edge glad your here as we can talk freely. You have a good reputation and I am inclined to believe you on the rolling thing. I built my mill in the early 90's and cut a lot of board feet with satisfaction. Belted 19" wheels,  Cooks guides, 15 hp three phase motor, power feed, hydraulic turner. I have a Cooks cats claw grinder and a two tooth setter of my own manufacture. I have tried most brands of bands and have had good luck with all. I get at least 10 sharpening's from a band usually 12. I run 1 1/2" bands and everything runs smoothly until they reach 1 1/4" then they take the dive. I don't know if rolling would help that or if I just ground away the hardened part of the tooth and they won't hold an edge. Is there anyone other than Cooks that makes a roller for narrow bands.?? Thanks mate. Frank C.

Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2017, 07:39:32 AM »

No need for the "Mr."   You're several years to my senior, so in all honesty, it should be the other way around.   ;)

To answer your question on your blades diving, I have no answer since it is something that IMO is best to evaluate hands on in most cases.  But depending on the guide roller width, you could be literally beating the set out of the teeth when they get that narrow.

I have considered manufacturing Blade Rollers to sell and have parts on hand to do so.  The issue is providing support after the sale.   The last I want to do right now is spend more time on the phone "training" a customer on the "meat-n-taters" of blade body curvature.  Not saying that I won't be manufacturing them in the future, just won't sell a product in which I can't provide the proper support that has been rightfully paid for in advance through purchase.   Just to many irons in the fire and winter will be upon us shortly too.  I'm sure most understand.

I already spend quite a bit of time on the phone with regular business related calls.  Many times offering support to a person (at no cost) whom has had smoke blown up the rear-end by other manufacturers... which takes away from tasks that generate income.  I feel obligated to help a person whom calls that is in need of candid and straight forward information/advice.  You'd be surprised what major companies will tell a person to cover up their own mistakes or lack of knowledge.  But, I know it will pay off in the long run.   :)



Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
 - Sharpening Services - Narrow Band and Woodworking
 - Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
 - On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair
 - Phone: (304) 878-3343
 - cesawservice@gmail.com

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades

www.cesawservice.business.site

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2017, 04:31:02 PM »
  Frank

  I think you should send Cutting edge a couple of your blades that wont cut straight , get them rolled and sharpened and see how they cut. I'd sure like a honest opinion, As he pointed out make sure the rollers aren't taking the set out. The place I used to buy my bands from told me that if the roller even get into the gullets at all that will cause blades to break.  Being as we're free to talk here on the other forum the operator with the LT70 that couldn't cut straight , I sent him a PM and found out he was running WM Silver Tip blades, the last time I tried them they cut so bad I sent them back, no way to cut straight with them.  I didn't want to point that out on that forum as I most likely would have got kicked off.  Steve

  Welcome Cutting Edge

Offline Ox

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2017, 07:08:05 PM »
I second the notion to send Cutting Edge a few blades.  He's the only service I know of that will guarantee a better than new cutting blade (as long as your mill is in alignment and is working as it should). 

Howdy mountainlake.  Are you ladylake, by chance, on FF? 

I love it here.  If the good guys over on FF knew about this place I think they'd be here in a heartbeat.  >:D
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2017, 07:22:13 PM »
Thanks guys, I will check the position of the band on the rollers, I never considered it before. I must say I've never had a band break on my band mill and after all the wood I cut before I get to 1 1/4" from 1 1/2"  I can't or at least shouldn't complain. I have a lathe and milling machine and just need the ambition to build a band roller. Correction on timing I set up a circular mill in the early eighties and built the band mill in the 90's. Next time I need bands I'll try the Kasco's. I've always used Timberwolf bands as the owner Art Gershwin spent a lot of time on the phone with me when I was building my mill and helped me greatly. Frank C.

Offline 4x4American

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 09:49:38 PM »
I have a cook's blade roller.  It is a very necessary piece of the sharpening equation, depending on your guides.  Roller guides, it's a must have.  Sandwich guides, not as big of a deal.  Think of it this way:  your roller guides steer the blade through the cut.  If the blade is flat or even has a little dish on the side that touches the guide roller, that blade will cut flat.  If your blade has a crown on the side that touches the guide rollers, that blade will wobble like a rocking chair, resulting in wavy, wiggely cuts.  The bigger the crown, the bigger the waves.  A little crown will make squiggely lines.  I run 1-1/2" blades and many batches of blades I get, I need to roll them brand new out of the box.  But when a blade is flat, that some buck will cut flat.  I can dang near stall the 36hp diesel on my mill and it will still be cutting flat.  If someone came and offered me twice what I paid for the roller, well...I'd probably sell it and then buy another one but you get my drift, I won't be without it.  There is quite a few places that sharpen blades and when I get behind I would love to send them out but they don't roll blades so they don't get my business.  The way I was taught to check for flatness is with a brand new razor blade and a light.  The tiniest little bit of crown on the inside of the blade will make firewood.  A slight dish or flat blade body will make good lumber.  I lay the razor only where the guide rollers touch the blade so that if theres a burr in the gullet from grinding it wont give me a false reading. 
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Offline Ox

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2017, 10:47:25 AM »
Well written and very thorough explanation, bud!
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Offline 4x4American

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2017, 04:50:59 PM »
 ;D I can't believe I typed all that on my phone lol!
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Offline furu

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Re: Band rolling
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2017, 04:53:40 PM »
You young-uns and your phone typing finger dexterity.  It is impressive but I don't get the value in it. :)
Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.