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Author Topic: Guns?  (Read 9252 times)

Offline joasis

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Guns?
« on: February 19, 2018, 06:36:03 AM »
Here comes the attacks on the millions and millions of Americans who own firearms.

And where is the attacks on psychiatrists and psychologists that medicate these kids until they have created problems we hardly understand?

EVERY school shooter has one thing in common. Psychotropic drugs. We are truly becoming a Prozac Nation.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 07:50:31 AM »
Re: Psychologists/Psychiatrists, a favorite saying by Jerry Clower--educated way beyond their intelligence. My wife is a very educated woman, however, some of the things she says or does really makes me wonder. ??

 I will set this thread on fire if I go any further about guns and protesters.

Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 08:57:55 AM »
I don't think it's right that the liberals are trying to attack my culture (gun culture) like this.  Aren't they supposed to be all inclusive?  Accepting of all types of people?  Accepting of all types of cultures?  Seems like they are singling out the gun owners, white folks, Christians, etc.

Why don't they ever address the fact that the people are the dangerous ones, not the tools in their hands.  There were knife attacks where multiple people died but not a word was said.  Why?

The true fact is people kill people.  Period.  Always was, always will be.  Even if it's down to nothing but rocks and sharp sticks to use - people will still kill people.  But you can't hardly get a democrat or liberal to admit or even talk about this fact.  They'll just screech and point fingers and sling names around.  How tolerant.

I still stand by this:  the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 12:57:13 PM »
We should be getting louder than the antigun crowd, demanding our kids have some protection. There is only one way to stop it, and that is to fight fire with fire.

99% of the mass shooters would not even entertain the idea of shooting up the school if they knew some of the staff was armed and willing to shoot back. It should be mandatory that any school have a certain percentage of staff armed and trained to protect themselves and our kids, we should have demanded it long ago.

I have no doubt that eventually we will pass one worthless law after another for years, till one day they will finally be forced to arm the schools, when all the laws are exhausted and the libs finally come to the conclusion that mass murders do not pay a whole lot of attention to the laws.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 05:21:57 PM »
I believe that regardless of the weapon, if folks want to kill or maim they will find a way.  I agree its' easier with an off the shelf so to speak weapon, but going on what I believe the numbers are saying, percentage wise, murders by these semi-auto weapons are low.  I KNOW one is too many, I'm just saying the percentage is low, if what I've read is true.  I am all for armed guards at schools to some degree or other, as well as a tighter security net around these facilities.  As it has been said, these liberal politicians are not so much for gun control as they are people control.   I mean look at them, they all have armed guards..Gated homes and work places,,so where is the common ground they claim to be standing on?  And the ones that vote for them,? well, I really don't know what to say,,without calling names,,

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 06:36:56 PM »
i own guns for hunting,i am a good shoot so a semi auto is not nessary.  the biggest problem i see is the won't bend or budge mindset of alot of gun owners. any deal is half bought and half sold. when the 2nd ammendment was written the right to bare arms couldn't for see the developement of semi or fully auto guns.
we as americans seem to believe we are smarter than any other society yet, we are the only country that has a gun violence problem.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 07:03:31 PM »
You  are right, when the 2A was written they had no idea of what kind of weapons we would have available, that is why it specifies the same as our govt has, it has nothing to do with hunting at all, and never has. If you get down to it and go strictly by the sA, we should have access to nuclear bombs and ballistic missiles.

I am the same way as far as my firearms are strictly hunting  (and plinking) arms, just never got into the semi auto stuff, but I sure support others rights to own and shoot them.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 06:57:10 AM »
The intent of the 2nd was NEVER about hunting, it is the right of the citizens to resit tyranny.
Yes, the Founders could not have conceived that modern day weapons could be so advanced....but then again, the Founders would not have expected drugs, The Southern Poverty Law Center, The KU KLUX KLAN, or a nation stretching sea to sea.

The wonder of how our nation works does amaze me, but I stand with Conservative principals. I believe in my right to own a firearm, or a knife, or a club to defend myself by my choice. If I think an ARMALITE RIFLE, model 15, is cool to own, and if I want one, I will buy one. I am not asking a subsidy from the government to have it, buy it, maintain it, or shoot it.

If I think it is scary looking, and I don't want one, guess what? I won't buy one. But unlike liberals and Democrats, I will not try and dictate what others can do.

The debate is not about a semi-auto rifle that could be likened to being the "Corvette" of the gun world....after all, who really needs a Corvette? Rather, the debate is about our ability to defend ourselves, and not let or allow a tyrannical government to subjugate us completely.

By the way, I own a Mini-14, and a Mini-30, both look like 3/4 scale Garand Rifles, and function exactly the same way. They also have a magazine capacity of 30 rounds, fire just as fast, but do not have the "look" of the AR platform. They look like WWII weapons, and are just as deadly.  My gold clubs are deadly too. My truck,  my semi-tractor,  my Leatherman Tool, and just about any object I can find, like an axe, can be an assault weapon.

Anytime you buy into the debate saying a weapon should be illegal because it has no practical purpose for hunting, you are signing away your liberty. I was born 16 years after the end of the Holocaust. It could happen again.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 09:00:25 AM »
Well done, joasis.  I have nothing to add after your post.  You literally hit every nail on the head that I would want but I know damn well I couldn't have written it down so precisely.  If only we could get liberals to accept what you're saying.  It's not that they don't understand (they all can't possibly be THAT stupid, can they?!?) they just don't want to accept it.

I know that much of the liberal problem we have in this country is started right in the public school system.  Our kids are having liberal logic rammed down their throats by the teachers and administration from kindergarten on up.

If "they" pass any more unconstitutional gun laws we are not required to obey as any unconstitutional law cannot supersede any previous law.  The decent folks of NY, mostly upstaters like me, quietly refused to disclose or sign our name to the list for any "illegal guns or magazines" (basically any long gun with a hand grip or a magazine that can hold more that 10 rounds), stated as such and pushed through illegally at midnight and refused perusal by the constituents as per the law, by our corrupt and horribly liberal governor Cuomo and his administration.  Basically nobody stepped forward.  There were crickets.  Same thing happened in CT and MA.  The news doesn't talk about the non compliance that occurred but trust me - the silence was deafening to the traitors in office.  It's bad enough that we're required to get a special licence to buy and own handguns, handed out according to the county judge and if he likes you or not.  Then you need to list every handgun sale, purchase and possession.  I don't know how other states operate, but goll-lee this place sucks.  Anyone want to donate to getting my freedom loving family out of NY and south of the Mason Dixon? lol
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 01:11:00 PM »
A huge percentage of folks don't look at, or understand what the original intent of the 2A is written for, nor the reason for the (shall not be infringed) part of it. It has never and still doesn't have anything to do with hunting.

I personally like lever actions, possibly because I shoot left handed and my first and only big game rifle for most of my younger years was a 300 savage lever action.
Thinking about it, I think the only semi's that I currently own are 22's, one is actually my wifes, the other I have never even shot, it is to be my grandsons eventually.

I have owned a couple of auto handguns, but they are among the few guns that I have ever traded off, but even though I have never been good enough to hunt with a handgun, I have several revolvers, the first of which I bought in 78.
So as it is right now out of probably 30 some odd firearms, only 2 22lr's are semiauto, BUT the way things have been changing toe last 20 years, if I thought I had 20 years left, I would probably pick up some more appropriate arms for what the 2A  was intended for. There may just come a time they will be needed.

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 05:22:56 PM »
sooooooo
 just curious how one thinks your small cache of guns will even deter a gov. tyranny? if that really was their "motive" shut the ammo plants done first and basically game over. about like preppers if shit gets nuked there won't be anything to survive for >:(
 just the mind set on here is directly related to the basic problem. unwilling to even look at the out of control shootings, maybe constructive debate on tougher background checks or mental health screening. neither one of those 2 topics does nothing to your 2a right
i'm just offering a differant view point.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 05:51:38 PM »
If that even was their motive. Are you serious, it is written down in plain old black and white so we all could plainly understand it?
I really don't know how well my little stash would do, not as well as a lot of folks, I'm sure, but look at what has happened in other countries, where the peasents had much less.

As far as the school shootings go, I have been shouting for years for them to get off the gun free mantra and give staff the ability to defend themselves and the kids.
The mental deal is a problem, libs do not want them dealt with at all, I am concerned on who would get to make the call, and how and what conditions they would use to determine a person did not have the mental capacity to have his god given rights. It is kind of a sticky subject, and I sure don't have an answer.

Offline Stevem

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 06:44:17 PM »
What I'm hearing as of late makes some kind of sense.  "Guns are not the problem" the problem is a society that has become enured to violence and relies on pills to solve their problems.
Baby sit your kids with television programs full of sex and violence.
Allow your kids to have total access to the internet where you can find all the sex and violence and "how toos"  for bomb making and abusing women you want 24/7.
Allow your kids to have their "own" space which is off limits to any parents or other adults supervision.
Let your children go where they want and be with who they chose with no responsibility.
Got a mental problem, suffer from depression, bored with life, here take a pill.
Have no dreams for the future, that's OK, just borrow a bunch of money and go to college. You'll figure something out
Don't want to work, no problem, mom and dad will take care of you 'till you do.
Don't know what sex you are?  Use the gender neutral bathroom at school.
Failed a test at school or didn't get an award? No problem you at least participated.
Take your girl friend to the prom in a rented limo and off to the motel afterwards with the reservation your parents made.  Where do these kids get the money to buy and do what they do?  Has anybody asked that question?
And what is the child supposed to think is "NORMAL" with that kind of input?

As ye sow, so shall ye reap, packed down, shaken together and over flowing.

I was at a parent teacher conference a number of year ago talking to the daughters math teacher (her lowest grade) and he says as an excuse "well she's turned in all her home work."  I looked him right in the eye and said, "she didn't know she had an option".

Parents somehow think they are raising children, well they are not! They are (supposed to be) raising adults!  Childhood is a temporary situation assuming they survive.
 
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:53:01 PM by Stevem »
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 07:28:23 AM »
sooooooo
 just curious how one thinks your small cache of guns will even deter a gov. tyranny? if that really was their "motive" shut the ammo plants done first and basically game over. about like preppers if shit gets nuked there won't be anything to survive for >:(
 just the mind set on here is directly related to the basic problem. unwilling to even look at the out of control shootings, maybe constructive debate on tougher background checks or mental health screening. neither one of those 2 topics does nothing to your 2a right
i'm just offering a differant view point.

I will directly tell you how my small cache of arms will deter tyranny: In an armed state, the force necessary to pacify the nation would have to be far greater then the numbers of armed citizens.  Think of it this way: You can pick my house, or my neighbor's house....to break and enter, or knock on the door and demand our arms. How will that work out for you?

That said, let me be absolutely clear: My right to keep and bear arms is MINE, not your right to deprive me of same, because in your opinion, somehow disarming me will make you safe. I have no illusions about an armored Humvee rolling down the street with a ring mounted M60 and forcing citizens to surrender arms....but will this make you safe?

Common sense background checks? Sounds like Common sense immigration reforms. Passing more laws will do what exactly? Cause criminals to rush into police stations to comply with the new laws? Will passing laws that say if a person who is using medical marijuana to control the effects of chemotherapy or help with diabetes that they will now be forced to surrender their property make you or a school safer?

Has there ever been any veteran or cancer patient who has taken a firearm into a school and killed anyone? Or...have each and every school shooter have something else in common?

EVERY school shooter, and except the Muslims in San Bernadino or Tampa, have all been on mind altering drugs, like Prozac, Thorazine, and Ridialin.

Lets have a conversation about why school shootings, and mass shootings are in the same time line as psychotropic drugs and diagnosing kids with attention deficit disorder or hyperactive deficit disorder. Lets talk about the violence that kids see every day that dehumanize death and morality.

You want to deprive me of my rights, you probably need to be prepared to die to do so. I am prepared to die to protect my rights.
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 07:41:32 AM »
The obvious solution is for schools to be secured.

Think about this: Even large schools can be configured just like a large ship, so to speak.

My wife and I recently were on a cruise, and there were 2000 passengers who got on and off the ship at every port in a short amount of time, and everyone walked through a metal detector, had a badge that proved identity and the cruiseline knew with absolute certainty where each passenger was, meaning on shore or on the ship.

The technology is there, it is relatively cheap, and it works.

All students in a given building enter through a portal, have a student ID that matches them with a photo on a screen, and then the school would know that each student is either in or not in school. Back packs go through the scan and kids through the detector and presto, you have the same security offered on any military and government facility.

In my small town, there are 3 school buildings, and 900 kids. There would be 2 portals, and the problem is basically contained. If a shooter were to attempt to enter, security doors would close, and since the shooters are 100% not wanting to engage in a gun fight, they would leave, or be left with no where to run.

I also strongly believe that teachers who are comfortable with training for concealed carry is an absolute must. In Columbine and Parkland, there were male coaches who both, if they had been armed, would have probably changed the outcome.

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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 07:50:36 AM »
I will toss this out there as well:

My wife and I were in Stillwater, Oklahoma, where my youngest kid is in college. She is 19, a freshman, and has had training with handguns and has taken the course for the AR platform.  Being the daughter of a cop, she had the benefit of parents with contacts in the law enforcement world for training like this, and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who ran her through the handgun training course scored her at 90% or greater....when she was 17.

What this means, in simple terms, if she is armed, and you are coming after her, 9 out of 10 rounds she shoots are in the kill zone. 90% of her rounds are in the 6 inch ring at 15 yards....the gold standard.

But, because she is 19, she cannot own or carry a handgun. So the law makes her defenseless.

I spent 15 minutes talking with her about what to  do if:  She is in class and a shooter is outside.

If she is outside and hears shots.

If she is in her dorm and hears shooting outside.


I am going to spend a few minutes with my grandsons and have the same conversation.


Now, for those who read this and think about how tragic this is.....remember what I said: When I was a kid, there were no doctors prescribing mind altering drugs and ADD/HDD and BS like that. There was discipline in schools, prayer, respect, and morality. And no school shooting.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 10:18:57 AM »
There is no doubt in my mind (and there shouldn't be any doubt in anybody else's if they have half a brain) that today's violence is caused two things:  the degradation of American society and psychotropic drugs.  Those two things together has caused the mass shootings.  Guns are just tools.

I'll say this:  I'M TIRED OF PEOPLE TRYING TO TELL ME HOW TO LIVE, THINK, SPEAK AND ACT.  I DON'T TELL YOU STINKING LIBERALS HOW TO LIVE AND I EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN.

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Offline furu

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 11:34:44 AM »
joasis
Three well written posts.

There is the issue of the desensitization to violence of the violent 1st shooter video games.
It has been several years now but a psychologist that had worked with the military to better prepare young men for battle wrote several article on the tools that were used. Guess what one of them was!  Of course now nearly every kid has already used that tool extensively before they enlist.  The media poo-pawed him because they knew better and it did not fit their agenda.

Remember guns don't really hurt folks.  They are just part of a game and a toy.  You shoot at them they shoot back at you.  You score they score you reset and start again.  How can anything be really final as it is all part of a make believe game world. 
That make believe world is aided with mind altering chemicals making it even more unreal.

Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 04:53:51 PM »
I listened to the meeting Trump held, to "listen" to the people who have been victims, lost kids, survivors, and others, and the disconnect simply intrigues me.

Trump discussed arming teachers or personnel and one lady who lost a child at Sandyhook said she was opposed.

Opposed to having an armed teacher or anyone prepared....she wanted teachers and others to be trained to "recognize" a threat.

Well....Adam Lanza was entering the school armed and with intent to do violence, and he knew there would be no one or anything to stop him. Do you suppose if someone were trained to recognize the threat he posed, and they were unarmed, the outcome would have been different?

These perps pick "soft" targets for the same reason bullies pick on weaker kids. A bully will typically avoid a confrontation with someone who fights back. These mentally screwed POS's pick "gun free zones" because they are cowards in total, and they want no interference with their need to kill, and certainly do not want to exchange gunfire with an armed response.

Eric Harris (Collumbine) exchanged gunfire with cops twice and both times retreated when bullets were impacting close to him. It was ok when he was shooting at the cops, but not ok when he realized they would indeed shoot back. Video games do not shoot back.

Another kid could only cry and talk about "weapons of war"....some may call me heartless, but this kid was coached to give his opinion. And he wasn't alone.

And while the talk did center around the mental health issues, they simply ignore the fact that EACH and EVERY school shooter has been on psychotropic drugs...Prozac, Ridalin, Thorazene, and others which have differing effects on different people....how about stop medicating problem kids?
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 04:58:49 PM »
I would strongly suspect that every town with a school probably has any number of veterans who would for basic pay, or even volunteer, serve as the armed presence in the schools.

Just knowing that you would have to walk past men who have proven they will shoot would probably stop every creep that tries it.

James Holmes drove past 2 movie theaters to get to the one that was a "gun free zone".

And I can assure you that when my wife and I go out to a movie, we are not going to be the unarmed victims. My wife is a cop, and I carry everywhere I go. I don't give a damn if the sign says no guns....better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

If faced with a threat, I will be heading to the threat. I will not be looking to hide or run for an exit.
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Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 05:09:30 PM »
I like that comment, "rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6"  no doubt, those poor folks, and I say that with all kinds of restraint, those folks that some how think everything will be ok, and better when more laws are installed.  mercy, it's really a some kind of stupid naive frame of mind to think like this.. Its sad that we have to be concerned  regardless of where we go.   You never know when someone with issues will come unglued,

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »
 i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 06:34:47 PM »
Do you have another country n mind, you think we should be like. Personally as bad as it seems I think we have it better here, than any country I know of.

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 06:37:24 PM »
Another point, I do not need or own anything that can take a 30 round mag, but the goal is no guns to the antis, the bumpstocks (which personally I see zero use for) is just a step for them. The fight will not be over till you can not own a single shot 410 shotgun, period.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 09:26:15 PM »
It's been said a good defense is better than a good offense. Not sure about that,  what I am sure about is making more gun laws that will ultimately affect the average law abiding american than the criminal base is counter productive.  As to mental illnesses and the medications associated with varying mental illnesses, this is an area that I believe could use a more  serious in depth research that focuses on just how these two elements interact. Really, the bottom line currently is on the AR-15's because they are relatively easy to obtain, and obviously do damage in a hurry.  If reports are correct, that these individuals that committed these most recent attacks were in fact being treated for mental health issues, then they were clearly not in the proper frame of mind to own these weapons, but it does not mean they would not have been able to obtain the weapons whether they owned them or not, so back to the laws of gun control, where is the answer? It's not by making more laws,  look at the judicial system, do laws stop individuals from breaking the laws?  Do locks stop thieves?