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Author Topic: Guns?  (Read 9251 times)

Offline joasis

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Guns?
« on: February 19, 2018, 06:36:03 AM »
Here comes the attacks on the millions and millions of Americans who own firearms.

And where is the attacks on psychiatrists and psychologists that medicate these kids until they have created problems we hardly understand?

EVERY school shooter has one thing in common. Psychotropic drugs. We are truly becoming a Prozac Nation.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 07:50:31 AM »
Re: Psychologists/Psychiatrists, a favorite saying by Jerry Clower--educated way beyond their intelligence. My wife is a very educated woman, however, some of the things she says or does really makes me wonder. ??

 I will set this thread on fire if I go any further about guns and protesters.

Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 08:57:55 AM »
I don't think it's right that the liberals are trying to attack my culture (gun culture) like this.  Aren't they supposed to be all inclusive?  Accepting of all types of people?  Accepting of all types of cultures?  Seems like they are singling out the gun owners, white folks, Christians, etc.

Why don't they ever address the fact that the people are the dangerous ones, not the tools in their hands.  There were knife attacks where multiple people died but not a word was said.  Why?

The true fact is people kill people.  Period.  Always was, always will be.  Even if it's down to nothing but rocks and sharp sticks to use - people will still kill people.  But you can't hardly get a democrat or liberal to admit or even talk about this fact.  They'll just screech and point fingers and sling names around.  How tolerant.

I still stand by this:  the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 12:57:13 PM »
We should be getting louder than the antigun crowd, demanding our kids have some protection. There is only one way to stop it, and that is to fight fire with fire.

99% of the mass shooters would not even entertain the idea of shooting up the school if they knew some of the staff was armed and willing to shoot back. It should be mandatory that any school have a certain percentage of staff armed and trained to protect themselves and our kids, we should have demanded it long ago.

I have no doubt that eventually we will pass one worthless law after another for years, till one day they will finally be forced to arm the schools, when all the laws are exhausted and the libs finally come to the conclusion that mass murders do not pay a whole lot of attention to the laws.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 05:21:57 PM »
I believe that regardless of the weapon, if folks want to kill or maim they will find a way.  I agree its' easier with an off the shelf so to speak weapon, but going on what I believe the numbers are saying, percentage wise, murders by these semi-auto weapons are low.  I KNOW one is too many, I'm just saying the percentage is low, if what I've read is true.  I am all for armed guards at schools to some degree or other, as well as a tighter security net around these facilities.  As it has been said, these liberal politicians are not so much for gun control as they are people control.   I mean look at them, they all have armed guards..Gated homes and work places,,so where is the common ground they claim to be standing on?  And the ones that vote for them,? well, I really don't know what to say,,without calling names,,

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 06:36:56 PM »
i own guns for hunting,i am a good shoot so a semi auto is not nessary.  the biggest problem i see is the won't bend or budge mindset of alot of gun owners. any deal is half bought and half sold. when the 2nd ammendment was written the right to bare arms couldn't for see the developement of semi or fully auto guns.
we as americans seem to believe we are smarter than any other society yet, we are the only country that has a gun violence problem.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 07:03:31 PM »
You  are right, when the 2A was written they had no idea of what kind of weapons we would have available, that is why it specifies the same as our govt has, it has nothing to do with hunting at all, and never has. If you get down to it and go strictly by the sA, we should have access to nuclear bombs and ballistic missiles.

I am the same way as far as my firearms are strictly hunting  (and plinking) arms, just never got into the semi auto stuff, but I sure support others rights to own and shoot them.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2018, 06:57:10 AM »
The intent of the 2nd was NEVER about hunting, it is the right of the citizens to resit tyranny.
Yes, the Founders could not have conceived that modern day weapons could be so advanced....but then again, the Founders would not have expected drugs, The Southern Poverty Law Center, The KU KLUX KLAN, or a nation stretching sea to sea.

The wonder of how our nation works does amaze me, but I stand with Conservative principals. I believe in my right to own a firearm, or a knife, or a club to defend myself by my choice. If I think an ARMALITE RIFLE, model 15, is cool to own, and if I want one, I will buy one. I am not asking a subsidy from the government to have it, buy it, maintain it, or shoot it.

If I think it is scary looking, and I don't want one, guess what? I won't buy one. But unlike liberals and Democrats, I will not try and dictate what others can do.

The debate is not about a semi-auto rifle that could be likened to being the "Corvette" of the gun world....after all, who really needs a Corvette? Rather, the debate is about our ability to defend ourselves, and not let or allow a tyrannical government to subjugate us completely.

By the way, I own a Mini-14, and a Mini-30, both look like 3/4 scale Garand Rifles, and function exactly the same way. They also have a magazine capacity of 30 rounds, fire just as fast, but do not have the "look" of the AR platform. They look like WWII weapons, and are just as deadly.  My gold clubs are deadly too. My truck,  my semi-tractor,  my Leatherman Tool, and just about any object I can find, like an axe, can be an assault weapon.

Anytime you buy into the debate saying a weapon should be illegal because it has no practical purpose for hunting, you are signing away your liberty. I was born 16 years after the end of the Holocaust. It could happen again.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2018, 09:00:25 AM »
Well done, joasis.  I have nothing to add after your post.  You literally hit every nail on the head that I would want but I know damn well I couldn't have written it down so precisely.  If only we could get liberals to accept what you're saying.  It's not that they don't understand (they all can't possibly be THAT stupid, can they?!?) they just don't want to accept it.

I know that much of the liberal problem we have in this country is started right in the public school system.  Our kids are having liberal logic rammed down their throats by the teachers and administration from kindergarten on up.

If "they" pass any more unconstitutional gun laws we are not required to obey as any unconstitutional law cannot supersede any previous law.  The decent folks of NY, mostly upstaters like me, quietly refused to disclose or sign our name to the list for any "illegal guns or magazines" (basically any long gun with a hand grip or a magazine that can hold more that 10 rounds), stated as such and pushed through illegally at midnight and refused perusal by the constituents as per the law, by our corrupt and horribly liberal governor Cuomo and his administration.  Basically nobody stepped forward.  There were crickets.  Same thing happened in CT and MA.  The news doesn't talk about the non compliance that occurred but trust me - the silence was deafening to the traitors in office.  It's bad enough that we're required to get a special licence to buy and own handguns, handed out according to the county judge and if he likes you or not.  Then you need to list every handgun sale, purchase and possession.  I don't know how other states operate, but goll-lee this place sucks.  Anyone want to donate to getting my freedom loving family out of NY and south of the Mason Dixon? lol
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 01:11:00 PM »
A huge percentage of folks don't look at, or understand what the original intent of the 2A is written for, nor the reason for the (shall not be infringed) part of it. It has never and still doesn't have anything to do with hunting.

I personally like lever actions, possibly because I shoot left handed and my first and only big game rifle for most of my younger years was a 300 savage lever action.
Thinking about it, I think the only semi's that I currently own are 22's, one is actually my wifes, the other I have never even shot, it is to be my grandsons eventually.

I have owned a couple of auto handguns, but they are among the few guns that I have ever traded off, but even though I have never been good enough to hunt with a handgun, I have several revolvers, the first of which I bought in 78.
So as it is right now out of probably 30 some odd firearms, only 2 22lr's are semiauto, BUT the way things have been changing toe last 20 years, if I thought I had 20 years left, I would probably pick up some more appropriate arms for what the 2A  was intended for. There may just come a time they will be needed.

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 05:22:56 PM »
sooooooo
 just curious how one thinks your small cache of guns will even deter a gov. tyranny? if that really was their "motive" shut the ammo plants done first and basically game over. about like preppers if shit gets nuked there won't be anything to survive for >:(
 just the mind set on here is directly related to the basic problem. unwilling to even look at the out of control shootings, maybe constructive debate on tougher background checks or mental health screening. neither one of those 2 topics does nothing to your 2a right
i'm just offering a differant view point.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 05:51:38 PM »
If that even was their motive. Are you serious, it is written down in plain old black and white so we all could plainly understand it?
I really don't know how well my little stash would do, not as well as a lot of folks, I'm sure, but look at what has happened in other countries, where the peasents had much less.

As far as the school shootings go, I have been shouting for years for them to get off the gun free mantra and give staff the ability to defend themselves and the kids.
The mental deal is a problem, libs do not want them dealt with at all, I am concerned on who would get to make the call, and how and what conditions they would use to determine a person did not have the mental capacity to have his god given rights. It is kind of a sticky subject, and I sure don't have an answer.

Offline Stevem

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 06:44:17 PM »
What I'm hearing as of late makes some kind of sense.  "Guns are not the problem" the problem is a society that has become enured to violence and relies on pills to solve their problems.
Baby sit your kids with television programs full of sex and violence.
Allow your kids to have total access to the internet where you can find all the sex and violence and "how toos"  for bomb making and abusing women you want 24/7.
Allow your kids to have their "own" space which is off limits to any parents or other adults supervision.
Let your children go where they want and be with who they chose with no responsibility.
Got a mental problem, suffer from depression, bored with life, here take a pill.
Have no dreams for the future, that's OK, just borrow a bunch of money and go to college. You'll figure something out
Don't want to work, no problem, mom and dad will take care of you 'till you do.
Don't know what sex you are?  Use the gender neutral bathroom at school.
Failed a test at school or didn't get an award? No problem you at least participated.
Take your girl friend to the prom in a rented limo and off to the motel afterwards with the reservation your parents made.  Where do these kids get the money to buy and do what they do?  Has anybody asked that question?
And what is the child supposed to think is "NORMAL" with that kind of input?

As ye sow, so shall ye reap, packed down, shaken together and over flowing.

I was at a parent teacher conference a number of year ago talking to the daughters math teacher (her lowest grade) and he says as an excuse "well she's turned in all her home work."  I looked him right in the eye and said, "she didn't know she had an option".

Parents somehow think they are raising children, well they are not! They are (supposed to be) raising adults!  Childhood is a temporary situation assuming they survive.
 
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:53:01 PM by Stevem »
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 07:28:23 AM »
sooooooo
 just curious how one thinks your small cache of guns will even deter a gov. tyranny? if that really was their "motive" shut the ammo plants done first and basically game over. about like preppers if shit gets nuked there won't be anything to survive for >:(
 just the mind set on here is directly related to the basic problem. unwilling to even look at the out of control shootings, maybe constructive debate on tougher background checks or mental health screening. neither one of those 2 topics does nothing to your 2a right
i'm just offering a differant view point.

I will directly tell you how my small cache of arms will deter tyranny: In an armed state, the force necessary to pacify the nation would have to be far greater then the numbers of armed citizens.  Think of it this way: You can pick my house, or my neighbor's house....to break and enter, or knock on the door and demand our arms. How will that work out for you?

That said, let me be absolutely clear: My right to keep and bear arms is MINE, not your right to deprive me of same, because in your opinion, somehow disarming me will make you safe. I have no illusions about an armored Humvee rolling down the street with a ring mounted M60 and forcing citizens to surrender arms....but will this make you safe?

Common sense background checks? Sounds like Common sense immigration reforms. Passing more laws will do what exactly? Cause criminals to rush into police stations to comply with the new laws? Will passing laws that say if a person who is using medical marijuana to control the effects of chemotherapy or help with diabetes that they will now be forced to surrender their property make you or a school safer?

Has there ever been any veteran or cancer patient who has taken a firearm into a school and killed anyone? Or...have each and every school shooter have something else in common?

EVERY school shooter, and except the Muslims in San Bernadino or Tampa, have all been on mind altering drugs, like Prozac, Thorazine, and Ridialin.

Lets have a conversation about why school shootings, and mass shootings are in the same time line as psychotropic drugs and diagnosing kids with attention deficit disorder or hyperactive deficit disorder. Lets talk about the violence that kids see every day that dehumanize death and morality.

You want to deprive me of my rights, you probably need to be prepared to die to do so. I am prepared to die to protect my rights.
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 07:41:32 AM »
The obvious solution is for schools to be secured.

Think about this: Even large schools can be configured just like a large ship, so to speak.

My wife and I recently were on a cruise, and there were 2000 passengers who got on and off the ship at every port in a short amount of time, and everyone walked through a metal detector, had a badge that proved identity and the cruiseline knew with absolute certainty where each passenger was, meaning on shore or on the ship.

The technology is there, it is relatively cheap, and it works.

All students in a given building enter through a portal, have a student ID that matches them with a photo on a screen, and then the school would know that each student is either in or not in school. Back packs go through the scan and kids through the detector and presto, you have the same security offered on any military and government facility.

In my small town, there are 3 school buildings, and 900 kids. There would be 2 portals, and the problem is basically contained. If a shooter were to attempt to enter, security doors would close, and since the shooters are 100% not wanting to engage in a gun fight, they would leave, or be left with no where to run.

I also strongly believe that teachers who are comfortable with training for concealed carry is an absolute must. In Columbine and Parkland, there were male coaches who both, if they had been armed, would have probably changed the outcome.

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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 07:50:36 AM »
I will toss this out there as well:

My wife and I were in Stillwater, Oklahoma, where my youngest kid is in college. She is 19, a freshman, and has had training with handguns and has taken the course for the AR platform.  Being the daughter of a cop, she had the benefit of parents with contacts in the law enforcement world for training like this, and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who ran her through the handgun training course scored her at 90% or greater....when she was 17.

What this means, in simple terms, if she is armed, and you are coming after her, 9 out of 10 rounds she shoots are in the kill zone. 90% of her rounds are in the 6 inch ring at 15 yards....the gold standard.

But, because she is 19, she cannot own or carry a handgun. So the law makes her defenseless.

I spent 15 minutes talking with her about what to  do if:  She is in class and a shooter is outside.

If she is outside and hears shots.

If she is in her dorm and hears shooting outside.


I am going to spend a few minutes with my grandsons and have the same conversation.


Now, for those who read this and think about how tragic this is.....remember what I said: When I was a kid, there were no doctors prescribing mind altering drugs and ADD/HDD and BS like that. There was discipline in schools, prayer, respect, and morality. And no school shooting.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 10:18:57 AM »
There is no doubt in my mind (and there shouldn't be any doubt in anybody else's if they have half a brain) that today's violence is caused two things:  the degradation of American society and psychotropic drugs.  Those two things together has caused the mass shootings.  Guns are just tools.

I'll say this:  I'M TIRED OF PEOPLE TRYING TO TELL ME HOW TO LIVE, THINK, SPEAK AND ACT.  I DON'T TELL YOU STINKING LIBERALS HOW TO LIVE AND I EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN.

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Offline furu

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 11:34:44 AM »
joasis
Three well written posts.

There is the issue of the desensitization to violence of the violent 1st shooter video games.
It has been several years now but a psychologist that had worked with the military to better prepare young men for battle wrote several article on the tools that were used. Guess what one of them was!  Of course now nearly every kid has already used that tool extensively before they enlist.  The media poo-pawed him because they knew better and it did not fit their agenda.

Remember guns don't really hurt folks.  They are just part of a game and a toy.  You shoot at them they shoot back at you.  You score they score you reset and start again.  How can anything be really final as it is all part of a make believe game world. 
That make believe world is aided with mind altering chemicals making it even more unreal.

Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 04:53:51 PM »
I listened to the meeting Trump held, to "listen" to the people who have been victims, lost kids, survivors, and others, and the disconnect simply intrigues me.

Trump discussed arming teachers or personnel and one lady who lost a child at Sandyhook said she was opposed.

Opposed to having an armed teacher or anyone prepared....she wanted teachers and others to be trained to "recognize" a threat.

Well....Adam Lanza was entering the school armed and with intent to do violence, and he knew there would be no one or anything to stop him. Do you suppose if someone were trained to recognize the threat he posed, and they were unarmed, the outcome would have been different?

These perps pick "soft" targets for the same reason bullies pick on weaker kids. A bully will typically avoid a confrontation with someone who fights back. These mentally screwed POS's pick "gun free zones" because they are cowards in total, and they want no interference with their need to kill, and certainly do not want to exchange gunfire with an armed response.

Eric Harris (Collumbine) exchanged gunfire with cops twice and both times retreated when bullets were impacting close to him. It was ok when he was shooting at the cops, but not ok when he realized they would indeed shoot back. Video games do not shoot back.

Another kid could only cry and talk about "weapons of war"....some may call me heartless, but this kid was coached to give his opinion. And he wasn't alone.

And while the talk did center around the mental health issues, they simply ignore the fact that EACH and EVERY school shooter has been on psychotropic drugs...Prozac, Ridalin, Thorazene, and others which have differing effects on different people....how about stop medicating problem kids?
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 04:58:49 PM »
I would strongly suspect that every town with a school probably has any number of veterans who would for basic pay, or even volunteer, serve as the armed presence in the schools.

Just knowing that you would have to walk past men who have proven they will shoot would probably stop every creep that tries it.

James Holmes drove past 2 movie theaters to get to the one that was a "gun free zone".

And I can assure you that when my wife and I go out to a movie, we are not going to be the unarmed victims. My wife is a cop, and I carry everywhere I go. I don't give a damn if the sign says no guns....better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

If faced with a threat, I will be heading to the threat. I will not be looking to hide or run for an exit.
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Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 05:09:30 PM »
I like that comment, "rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6"  no doubt, those poor folks, and I say that with all kinds of restraint, those folks that some how think everything will be ok, and better when more laws are installed.  mercy, it's really a some kind of stupid naive frame of mind to think like this.. Its sad that we have to be concerned  regardless of where we go.   You never know when someone with issues will come unglued,

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »
 i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 
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Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 06:34:47 PM »
Do you have another country n mind, you think we should be like. Personally as bad as it seems I think we have it better here, than any country I know of.

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 06:37:24 PM »
Another point, I do not need or own anything that can take a 30 round mag, but the goal is no guns to the antis, the bumpstocks (which personally I see zero use for) is just a step for them. The fight will not be over till you can not own a single shot 410 shotgun, period.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 09:26:15 PM »
It's been said a good defense is better than a good offense. Not sure about that,  what I am sure about is making more gun laws that will ultimately affect the average law abiding american than the criminal base is counter productive.  As to mental illnesses and the medications associated with varying mental illnesses, this is an area that I believe could use a more  serious in depth research that focuses on just how these two elements interact. Really, the bottom line currently is on the AR-15's because they are relatively easy to obtain, and obviously do damage in a hurry.  If reports are correct, that these individuals that committed these most recent attacks were in fact being treated for mental health issues, then they were clearly not in the proper frame of mind to own these weapons, but it does not mean they would not have been able to obtain the weapons whether they owned them or not, so back to the laws of gun control, where is the answer? It's not by making more laws,  look at the judicial system, do laws stop individuals from breaking the laws?  Do locks stop thieves?

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 09:41:51 PM »
i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 
Assualt type guns?  Any weapon used against another person is an assault.  Labeling a model of a gun shows ignorance in my opinion.  Define better background checks.  I agree we should have a better mental health standard but there is a huge problem with that one.  I have a neighbor that lost his child to stillbirth.  I was the EMT the morning of that call.  I have known this kid his whole life and just because he was greiving over the loss of his firstborn, the State of Illinois revoked his FOID card, which strips him of his right to possess a gun.  It took 5 years to get his rights properly returned to him.  That is wrong.  So with that in mind, WHO determines what is or is not a mental issue worthy of taking Constitutional rights away?

While you may wish to name call (fanatic gun owners) and insist on compromise, I must ask, will you compromise your First Amendment?  How about your 5th Amendment?  4th?  Shall I keep going?

I took an Oath to defend this Country and follow the Constitution.  That Oath said NOTHING about compromising our rights!
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 09:47:07 PM »
It's been said a good defense is better than a good offense. Not sure about that,  what I am sure about is making more gun laws that will ultimately affect the average law abiding american than the criminal base is counter productive.  As to mental illnesses and the medications associated with varying mental illnesses, this is an area that I believe could use a more  serious in depth research that focuses on just how these two elements interact. Really, the bottom line currently is on the AR-15's because they are relatively easy to obtain, and obviously do damage in a hurry.  If reports are correct, that these individuals that committed these most recent attacks were in fact being treated for mental health issues, then they were clearly not in the proper frame of mind to own these weapons, but it does not mean they would not have been able to obtain the weapons whether they owned them or not, so back to the laws of gun control, where is the answer? It's not by making more laws,  look at the judicial system, do laws stop individuals from breaking the laws?  Do locks stop thieves?

All great points!
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2018, 06:02:11 AM »
i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 


I think it is hilarious to study history. The Soviet Purges, the Holocaust....funny as hell. Mao's "Great Leap Forward"....now that was some funny shit right there.

Imagine a world where you place your trust in a friendly government to take care of you and protect you and see to your every need.

Now imagine that government being compromised by people willing to deny you your civil liberties.

Hitler disarmed the German populace in 1936. I guess the Jews didn't give a damn, the Germans insured their safety, right?

In our own South, Democrats used the Jim Crow laws to deny Blacks the same rights to own forearms that Whites have......let me guess....you think this is hilarious, since obviously, the White Democrats were simply "protecting" the Blacks......right?

One point....you are 100% correct about 30 round magazines. I am good enough that I don't need one for you, but if you come with friends, I may need one, I have the right to currently own them,  and I don't give a damn whether you think I need them or not.  You and your liberal friends come for my property to make yourself somehow feel safer, you need to decide if this is an issue worth dying for.
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Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2018, 08:18:38 AM »
 let me be clear here... i treasure my rights just like you guys.  where we differ i believe is i'm not passinate about them. i don't own guns for defense or taget shooting and iv'e never been worried that the government will attack or civilians attacking me for that matter. what i am passinate about are things i can control like, a good steward of the land. treat all people with respect no matter race, religon, sexual oriatation, political views, offer my time to help complete strangers. so, if it seems like i really don't understand your passion towards guns it's only because i don't share that same passion.
follow your heart, the rest will happen

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2018, 08:50:36 AM »
let me be clear here... i treasure my rights just like you guys.  where we differ i believe is i'm not passinate about them. i don't own guns for defense or taget shooting and iv'e never been worried that the government will attack or civilians attacking me for that matter. what i am passinate about are things i can control like, a good steward of the land. treat all people with respect no matter race, religon, sexual oriatation, political views, offer my time to help complete strangers. so, if it seems like i really don't understand your passion towards guns it's only because i don't share that same passion.

I think the possible disconect in this conversation is that it is not the gun we are passionate about. It is our Constitution! 
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 10:10:41 AM »
your right. i guess i didn't look at that angle.
sorry to elevate everyone's blood pressure ;D
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Re: Guns?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 10:42:16 AM »
The fact that others "don't see the need" and therefore think things should be outlawed is a main problem.  Who the HELL are YOU to decide what I do or don't need?  This is my main point.

My second point is these are freedoms.  Keep chipping away at them and soon they may not be here.  Just because these people don't have guns or feel the need to have guns they want to make everybody else exactly the same as them.  Honestly, what the hell is this type of mentality?
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2018, 11:11:50 AM »
your right. i guess i didn't look at that angle.
sorry to elevate everyone's blood pressure ;D

You did not elevate my blood pressure. no big deal. Opinions vary.

People are so quick to sellout to the flavor of the day without considering the real issues.....there are 16,000,000...that is 16 million AR style rifles out there, and if I read the statistic correctly, 250+ pr so have been used in firearm related deaths.

So what is the risk?

Lets talk about something that really matters. How many times have you been driving down the road and see someone yapping on their cellphone and nearly kill someone? Is this not a larger problem?

The school shootings are a terrible act, no doubt. No way I am trying to diminish it, but, in reality, the actual risks are lower for kids to be involved in a school shooting then being struck by lightening. A kid stands about a 1,000,000 times greater chance of being in a wreck with injury. It is very likely a kid will be in a wreck in their lifetime.  Texting and driving is 1000 times more risky then firearms in a kid's life.

There are 50,000,000 kids in school in America, and more kids die in accidents from sports injuries then shooting deaths.

Keep things in perspective.

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Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2018, 11:48:01 AM »
Matters can get out of hand, tempers can fly, opinions can roll, and its no different with this on going discussion. The bottom line of this discussion I do believe is in fact the up holding of our blessed constitution.  The is a very real threat, more than just a threat, an all out battle surrounding this fundamental document that binds our great country.  Its like a rock, standing on beliefs that every american should hold near and dear to their hearts. Brave men forged it, brave men have defended it, and now even more than ever it seems to be under an all out attack from the very ones who seem to be using it for their rights as free men and women, but in so doing are in fact slowly chiseling away at the base of its origin and purpose.  We are witnessing the slow removal of God from the foundation of the building of this great country, as well as the slow removal of historical statues and events that are the very basis of the history which has brought us to this point.  And now history is seemingly coming around to full circle.  Its my opinion that there are folks that see this current situation  as a very imminent threat to the beliefs our founding fathers fought and died to create and preserve.  I for one am one that has this stance, a stance of defense.  A defense against tyranny, and a stance against Gods' sovereign word.
Does that mean I'm perfect?  By no means,,does that mean anyone born of man is?  by no means,.  Does it mean we cannot sit down and calmly discuss differences of ideas and opinions with out name calling?  I surely hope so,  as the Lords' word says,  "If it be possible, as much as lieth with you, live peaceably with all men"  wise words I try to follow,and so I thank all you gents for this open forum, and trust that I in no way have caused offense to anyone, and in the event I have, please understand I'm nothing but a mere man forging my way through this journey just as you all.

Offline furu

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2018, 02:28:58 PM »
I often think of the slippery slope of society and the so called well meaning intent that folks think some action will have.
The number of laws that have been passed most well meaning but are found to have consequences that for-tell a bad future.

I have always thought that the following is a powerful bit of language.

From the speakings of: Martin Niemöller circa 1946.

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the
last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



A bit of a modification of this would be something like.

First they came for my Second Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because I do not agree and support the second amendment's language and intent.

Then they came for my Fourth Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because I have done nothing wrong and therefore have nothing to hide.

Then they came for my First Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because the ideas and concepts that were being discussed I did not agree with and therefore did not want to listen to as it was hateful to me.

Then they came for me-and there were no rights left to protect me.

Steve
Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2018, 03:29:50 PM »
This was recently posted on another forum I am a member of, and by someone that is very helpful to anyone with electrical/electronics problems. He lives about 25 miles south of Parkland.

 
 : I have lived here since 1983. A man I work with for over 30 years has a son who teaches in the building that was shot up. So you get the basics straight, there is a big fake media circus going on. The current sheriff, Scott Israel has been in office since 2012. His office received over 20 calls from Cruz (now deceased) adopted mother over his son's talk about killing people. The local FBI office also received explicit warnings from a different person about the same thing and willfully hid what they knew from the Miami regional office.
In short, law enforcement here are guilty of premeditated mass murder. If Cruz had been "Baker Act'ed" even once, it would have shown up of the mandatory pre-purchase background check and Sunrise Tactical would not have sold him ANY gun. The Baker Act is the common name for a statute that allows someone deemed to be a threat to themselves or others to be detained for psychiatric evaulation.
The shop that sold him the weapon has closed down, even though they did nothing illegal. When Cruz bought the gun he didn't buy any extra ammo or talk trash about his intent.
My coworkers who grew up in bad neighborhoods here support banning semi-automatic rifles. Police only commonly carry handguns and will retreat and call for SWAT team backup if they encounter someone with a semi-auto rifle. It is easier to buy a semi-auto rifle than a handgun in the US since the ban on those weapons expired in 2004. Handguns are harder to get on the theory that they are easier to conceal. Cruz weapon was not a Colt AR-15 as the media have said, it was the Smith and Wesson copy, the variant barrelled to fire .223 ammo

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2018, 04:29:28 PM »
All reports I have read is the local sheriffs office was called 36 or 39 times, reports have been both numbers, but no one was ever taken into custody or any charges at all filed. They have just claimed the calls were made, no mention of him threatening to kill anyone. This seems odd to me, most people even if they determined the calls were bogus, they would eventually tire of them wasting their time and file something.

As far as the FBI calls, there were 2  reports made to them a couple of months apart, that has been reported, after the folks that did the reporting spoke up. The way I understand it though, is that ALL reports now go through the national FBI office and they are suppose to send it on down to the correct local offices, which did not happen. As far as I am concerned the FBI has gotten to big with to many political hacks to be anything remotely as efficient or as effective as they should be.

Red oaks, it sounds as if my use for firearms are fairly close to yours, and like I said, I have no need nor want for some of the firearms available, so banning them would not affect me one bit, looking at the short side of it. Now look at the whole picture, banning any one of them, just erodes our constitution and god given rights a little more, and it is not the so called assault weapons the antis are after, they are after everything, and even are outspoken about wanting to do away with the 2A.

Some pretty smart folks, have made the comment that the 2A is the only right that protects all of our other rights, I tend to agree with them.

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2018, 05:38:17 PM »
It appears an all out fight for our 2A rights is shaping up, I feel at the very least, some folks will lose some rights on the state levels.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2018, 07:56:58 PM »
You know, growing up in the 60's and 70's these issues were not even a thought. We had more civil right disturbances than anything else.  Scuffles and the such, some of the usual bullying. Talking with my wife this evening I mentioned to her that the only real issue we had that faced schools was an occasional bomb threat.  None of which ever came to pass. Kids making prank calls.  And after one news report this evening that had a marine veteran on discussing the issue of these AR-15's and such, it got me to thinking.  These type weapons when I was growing up were strictly used in the military.  We never gave a thought of ever holding one unless we enlisted.  I still don't have one, really don't think much of it either.  So will this ultimately whittle away our constitutional right in regards to bear certain arms?  Probably, many other things seem to be leaning in the same direction.. I suppose its' the way its gonna be, in all of these debates concerning mass attacks at schools, or otherwise, there will always be a threat from something evil causing harm,  not sure getting all worked up out here in the country will do much to change a whole lot. 

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2018, 10:16:33 PM »
We didn't have ar's so much, but there were plenty of 30 carbines, garands, on and on, guns that could do the same thing. Infact you can do the same thing with an old marlin 22 lr if you are the only one on the premises with a firearm.  Growing up every kid had access to a gun, we had our share of bullying, but we also had the option of fighting back, something kids these days don't have.

Lots of things are different, but it is the people itself, the guns have always been here and have always been dangerous if used to kill.

We used to fight, bloody each others nose, black eyes, what ever then be best of friends the next day, the mindset has changed, and some amount of social engineering that hasn't worked out so well.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2018, 07:15:47 AM »
I wrote this on FB in response to a liberal demanding action on gun control:

I will tell you what is sad and perverse:
•   The shooter was probably diagnosed with ADD or ADHD and started down a path of prescription drugs to deal with behavioral issues. These drugs, as with most psychotropic narcotics, have side effects that range from depression to sleep disorders and suicidal and homicidal thoughts and rage….some drugs likeAdderall (amphetamine)
•   Ritalin (methylphenidate)
•   Concerta (methylphenidate)
•   Focalin (dexmethylphenidate)
•   Daytrana (methylphenidate patch)
•   Metadate (methylphenidate)
•   Methylin (methylphenidate)
•   Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine)
•   DextroStat (dextroamphetamine)
•   Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine dimesylate) are not fully understood, but guess what? Every school shooter since Collumbine has been on these drugs.
How about discussing the fact of not one, not two, not three, but four trailed law enforcement officers failed to do their jobs. FAILED!
Lets discuss the fact that the shooter, who was 19, not a kid any longer, had been seen and evaluated by many mental health professionals. Any one of them who noted that he was a problem had a resource available to them to use, but FAILED to do so.
What about a discussion about EVERYONE who came in contact with this guy? Can we talk about the reports people made about Cruz’s erratic behavior, the threats of violence, the school’s official position of not wanting him even on the premises?
And maybe…just maybe….we should talk about every teacher that was in contact with this kid for 12 years. The same teachers that referred him to a school sponsored mental health evaluation. If he was referred, he had an IEP in place, and that means more then one person KNEW what a time bomb was on their hands.
Instead, you want to play the game of “it is the weapon used”….and obviously, when the government has failed, it has to be the gun’s fault, or the NRA, 5 million members…it must be the NRA’s fault.
The fault lies with the idea of diagnosing kids to be ADD/HDAD when the failure started at home…..and discipline is gone. Making kids unresponsive because we can’t make them responsible is somehow the fault of a design of rifle that started with the civilian sport weapon world, and not the military is simply ignorant. But I have never believed the left shows the ability to be honest in any debate.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 09:42:49 AM »
That's a good argument but it's filled with facts and logic, the two things that liberals will recoil back from just like the witch and water in the Oz movie.  I'm betting you don't even get a decent argument out of it because they know you're right.
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