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Author Topic: Guns?  (Read 9253 times)

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 09:41:51 PM »
i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 
Assualt type guns?  Any weapon used against another person is an assault.  Labeling a model of a gun shows ignorance in my opinion.  Define better background checks.  I agree we should have a better mental health standard but there is a huge problem with that one.  I have a neighbor that lost his child to stillbirth.  I was the EMT the morning of that call.  I have known this kid his whole life and just because he was greiving over the loss of his firstborn, the State of Illinois revoked his FOID card, which strips him of his right to possess a gun.  It took 5 years to get his rights properly returned to him.  That is wrong.  So with that in mind, WHO determines what is or is not a mental issue worthy of taking Constitutional rights away?

While you may wish to name call (fanatic gun owners) and insist on compromise, I must ask, will you compromise your First Amendment?  How about your 5th Amendment?  4th?  Shall I keep going?

I took an Oath to defend this Country and follow the Constitution.  That Oath said NOTHING about compromising our rights!
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 09:47:07 PM »
It's been said a good defense is better than a good offense. Not sure about that,  what I am sure about is making more gun laws that will ultimately affect the average law abiding american than the criminal base is counter productive.  As to mental illnesses and the medications associated with varying mental illnesses, this is an area that I believe could use a more  serious in depth research that focuses on just how these two elements interact. Really, the bottom line currently is on the AR-15's because they are relatively easy to obtain, and obviously do damage in a hurry.  If reports are correct, that these individuals that committed these most recent attacks were in fact being treated for mental health issues, then they were clearly not in the proper frame of mind to own these weapons, but it does not mean they would not have been able to obtain the weapons whether they owned them or not, so back to the laws of gun control, where is the answer? It's not by making more laws,  look at the judicial system, do laws stop individuals from breaking the laws?  Do locks stop thieves?

All great points!
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2018, 06:02:11 AM »
i just think it's hilarious how defensive you guys get about guns... look at other countries one said. i see very little violance period. only in the great we know best america. quit trying to blame meds for gun issues. until fanatic gun owners are willing to even talk any compromise with assualt type guns or better background checks. i don't have a problem with people having guns to defend them selves but, assualt rifles ? not nessary, if your a half way marksman you don't need 30 shots to do the deed.
 


I think it is hilarious to study history. The Soviet Purges, the Holocaust....funny as hell. Mao's "Great Leap Forward"....now that was some funny shit right there.

Imagine a world where you place your trust in a friendly government to take care of you and protect you and see to your every need.

Now imagine that government being compromised by people willing to deny you your civil liberties.

Hitler disarmed the German populace in 1936. I guess the Jews didn't give a damn, the Germans insured their safety, right?

In our own South, Democrats used the Jim Crow laws to deny Blacks the same rights to own forearms that Whites have......let me guess....you think this is hilarious, since obviously, the White Democrats were simply "protecting" the Blacks......right?

One point....you are 100% correct about 30 round magazines. I am good enough that I don't need one for you, but if you come with friends, I may need one, I have the right to currently own them,  and I don't give a damn whether you think I need them or not.  You and your liberal friends come for my property to make yourself somehow feel safer, you need to decide if this is an issue worth dying for.
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Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2018, 08:18:38 AM »
 let me be clear here... i treasure my rights just like you guys.  where we differ i believe is i'm not passinate about them. i don't own guns for defense or taget shooting and iv'e never been worried that the government will attack or civilians attacking me for that matter. what i am passinate about are things i can control like, a good steward of the land. treat all people with respect no matter race, religon, sexual oriatation, political views, offer my time to help complete strangers. so, if it seems like i really don't understand your passion towards guns it's only because i don't share that same passion.
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2018, 08:50:36 AM »
let me be clear here... i treasure my rights just like you guys.  where we differ i believe is i'm not passinate about them. i don't own guns for defense or taget shooting and iv'e never been worried that the government will attack or civilians attacking me for that matter. what i am passinate about are things i can control like, a good steward of the land. treat all people with respect no matter race, religon, sexual oriatation, political views, offer my time to help complete strangers. so, if it seems like i really don't understand your passion towards guns it's only because i don't share that same passion.

I think the possible disconect in this conversation is that it is not the gun we are passionate about. It is our Constitution! 
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 10:10:41 AM »
your right. i guess i didn't look at that angle.
sorry to elevate everyone's blood pressure ;D
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 10:42:16 AM »
The fact that others "don't see the need" and therefore think things should be outlawed is a main problem.  Who the HELL are YOU to decide what I do or don't need?  This is my main point.

My second point is these are freedoms.  Keep chipping away at them and soon they may not be here.  Just because these people don't have guns or feel the need to have guns they want to make everybody else exactly the same as them.  Honestly, what the hell is this type of mentality?
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Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2018, 11:11:50 AM »
your right. i guess i didn't look at that angle.
sorry to elevate everyone's blood pressure ;D

You did not elevate my blood pressure. no big deal. Opinions vary.

People are so quick to sellout to the flavor of the day without considering the real issues.....there are 16,000,000...that is 16 million AR style rifles out there, and if I read the statistic correctly, 250+ pr so have been used in firearm related deaths.

So what is the risk?

Lets talk about something that really matters. How many times have you been driving down the road and see someone yapping on their cellphone and nearly kill someone? Is this not a larger problem?

The school shootings are a terrible act, no doubt. No way I am trying to diminish it, but, in reality, the actual risks are lower for kids to be involved in a school shooting then being struck by lightening. A kid stands about a 1,000,000 times greater chance of being in a wreck with injury. It is very likely a kid will be in a wreck in their lifetime.  Texting and driving is 1000 times more risky then firearms in a kid's life.

There are 50,000,000 kids in school in America, and more kids die in accidents from sports injuries then shooting deaths.

Keep things in perspective.

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Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2018, 11:48:01 AM »
Matters can get out of hand, tempers can fly, opinions can roll, and its no different with this on going discussion. The bottom line of this discussion I do believe is in fact the up holding of our blessed constitution.  The is a very real threat, more than just a threat, an all out battle surrounding this fundamental document that binds our great country.  Its like a rock, standing on beliefs that every american should hold near and dear to their hearts. Brave men forged it, brave men have defended it, and now even more than ever it seems to be under an all out attack from the very ones who seem to be using it for their rights as free men and women, but in so doing are in fact slowly chiseling away at the base of its origin and purpose.  We are witnessing the slow removal of God from the foundation of the building of this great country, as well as the slow removal of historical statues and events that are the very basis of the history which has brought us to this point.  And now history is seemingly coming around to full circle.  Its my opinion that there are folks that see this current situation  as a very imminent threat to the beliefs our founding fathers fought and died to create and preserve.  I for one am one that has this stance, a stance of defense.  A defense against tyranny, and a stance against Gods' sovereign word.
Does that mean I'm perfect?  By no means,,does that mean anyone born of man is?  by no means,.  Does it mean we cannot sit down and calmly discuss differences of ideas and opinions with out name calling?  I surely hope so,  as the Lords' word says,  "If it be possible, as much as lieth with you, live peaceably with all men"  wise words I try to follow,and so I thank all you gents for this open forum, and trust that I in no way have caused offense to anyone, and in the event I have, please understand I'm nothing but a mere man forging my way through this journey just as you all.

Offline furu

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2018, 02:28:58 PM »
I often think of the slippery slope of society and the so called well meaning intent that folks think some action will have.
The number of laws that have been passed most well meaning but are found to have consequences that for-tell a bad future.

I have always thought that the following is a powerful bit of language.

From the speakings of: Martin Niemöller circa 1946.

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the
last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



A bit of a modification of this would be something like.

First they came for my Second Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because I do not agree and support the second amendment's language and intent.

Then they came for my Fourth Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because I have done nothing wrong and therefore have nothing to hide.

Then they came for my First Amendment rights, and I did nothing-
Because the ideas and concepts that were being discussed I did not agree with and therefore did not want to listen to as it was hateful to me.

Then they came for me-and there were no rights left to protect me.

Steve
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Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2018, 03:29:50 PM »
This was recently posted on another forum I am a member of, and by someone that is very helpful to anyone with electrical/electronics problems. He lives about 25 miles south of Parkland.

 
 : I have lived here since 1983. A man I work with for over 30 years has a son who teaches in the building that was shot up. So you get the basics straight, there is a big fake media circus going on. The current sheriff, Scott Israel has been in office since 2012. His office received over 20 calls from Cruz (now deceased) adopted mother over his son's talk about killing people. The local FBI office also received explicit warnings from a different person about the same thing and willfully hid what they knew from the Miami regional office.
In short, law enforcement here are guilty of premeditated mass murder. If Cruz had been "Baker Act'ed" even once, it would have shown up of the mandatory pre-purchase background check and Sunrise Tactical would not have sold him ANY gun. The Baker Act is the common name for a statute that allows someone deemed to be a threat to themselves or others to be detained for psychiatric evaulation.
The shop that sold him the weapon has closed down, even though they did nothing illegal. When Cruz bought the gun he didn't buy any extra ammo or talk trash about his intent.
My coworkers who grew up in bad neighborhoods here support banning semi-automatic rifles. Police only commonly carry handguns and will retreat and call for SWAT team backup if they encounter someone with a semi-auto rifle. It is easier to buy a semi-auto rifle than a handgun in the US since the ban on those weapons expired in 2004. Handguns are harder to get on the theory that they are easier to conceal. Cruz weapon was not a Colt AR-15 as the media have said, it was the Smith and Wesson copy, the variant barrelled to fire .223 ammo

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2018, 04:29:28 PM »
All reports I have read is the local sheriffs office was called 36 or 39 times, reports have been both numbers, but no one was ever taken into custody or any charges at all filed. They have just claimed the calls were made, no mention of him threatening to kill anyone. This seems odd to me, most people even if they determined the calls were bogus, they would eventually tire of them wasting their time and file something.

As far as the FBI calls, there were 2  reports made to them a couple of months apart, that has been reported, after the folks that did the reporting spoke up. The way I understand it though, is that ALL reports now go through the national FBI office and they are suppose to send it on down to the correct local offices, which did not happen. As far as I am concerned the FBI has gotten to big with to many political hacks to be anything remotely as efficient or as effective as they should be.

Red oaks, it sounds as if my use for firearms are fairly close to yours, and like I said, I have no need nor want for some of the firearms available, so banning them would not affect me one bit, looking at the short side of it. Now look at the whole picture, banning any one of them, just erodes our constitution and god given rights a little more, and it is not the so called assault weapons the antis are after, they are after everything, and even are outspoken about wanting to do away with the 2A.

Some pretty smart folks, have made the comment that the 2A is the only right that protects all of our other rights, I tend to agree with them.

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2018, 05:38:17 PM »
It appears an all out fight for our 2A rights is shaping up, I feel at the very least, some folks will lose some rights on the state levels.

Offline drobertson

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2018, 07:56:58 PM »
You know, growing up in the 60's and 70's these issues were not even a thought. We had more civil right disturbances than anything else.  Scuffles and the such, some of the usual bullying. Talking with my wife this evening I mentioned to her that the only real issue we had that faced schools was an occasional bomb threat.  None of which ever came to pass. Kids making prank calls.  And after one news report this evening that had a marine veteran on discussing the issue of these AR-15's and such, it got me to thinking.  These type weapons when I was growing up were strictly used in the military.  We never gave a thought of ever holding one unless we enlisted.  I still don't have one, really don't think much of it either.  So will this ultimately whittle away our constitutional right in regards to bear certain arms?  Probably, many other things seem to be leaning in the same direction.. I suppose its' the way its gonna be, in all of these debates concerning mass attacks at schools, or otherwise, there will always be a threat from something evil causing harm,  not sure getting all worked up out here in the country will do much to change a whole lot. 

Offline starmac

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2018, 10:16:33 PM »
We didn't have ar's so much, but there were plenty of 30 carbines, garands, on and on, guns that could do the same thing. Infact you can do the same thing with an old marlin 22 lr if you are the only one on the premises with a firearm.  Growing up every kid had access to a gun, we had our share of bullying, but we also had the option of fighting back, something kids these days don't have.

Lots of things are different, but it is the people itself, the guns have always been here and have always been dangerous if used to kill.

We used to fight, bloody each others nose, black eyes, what ever then be best of friends the next day, the mindset has changed, and some amount of social engineering that hasn't worked out so well.

Offline joasis

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2018, 07:15:47 AM »
I wrote this on FB in response to a liberal demanding action on gun control:

I will tell you what is sad and perverse:
•   The shooter was probably diagnosed with ADD or ADHD and started down a path of prescription drugs to deal with behavioral issues. These drugs, as with most psychotropic narcotics, have side effects that range from depression to sleep disorders and suicidal and homicidal thoughts and rage….some drugs likeAdderall (amphetamine)
•   Ritalin (methylphenidate)
•   Concerta (methylphenidate)
•   Focalin (dexmethylphenidate)
•   Daytrana (methylphenidate patch)
•   Metadate (methylphenidate)
•   Methylin (methylphenidate)
•   Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine)
•   DextroStat (dextroamphetamine)
•   Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine dimesylate) are not fully understood, but guess what? Every school shooter since Collumbine has been on these drugs.
How about discussing the fact of not one, not two, not three, but four trailed law enforcement officers failed to do their jobs. FAILED!
Lets discuss the fact that the shooter, who was 19, not a kid any longer, had been seen and evaluated by many mental health professionals. Any one of them who noted that he was a problem had a resource available to them to use, but FAILED to do so.
What about a discussion about EVERYONE who came in contact with this guy? Can we talk about the reports people made about Cruz’s erratic behavior, the threats of violence, the school’s official position of not wanting him even on the premises?
And maybe…just maybe….we should talk about every teacher that was in contact with this kid for 12 years. The same teachers that referred him to a school sponsored mental health evaluation. If he was referred, he had an IEP in place, and that means more then one person KNEW what a time bomb was on their hands.
Instead, you want to play the game of “it is the weapon used”….and obviously, when the government has failed, it has to be the gun’s fault, or the NRA, 5 million members…it must be the NRA’s fault.
The fault lies with the idea of diagnosing kids to be ADD/HDAD when the failure started at home…..and discipline is gone. Making kids unresponsive because we can’t make them responsible is somehow the fault of a design of rifle that started with the civilian sport weapon world, and not the military is simply ignorant. But I have never believed the left shows the ability to be honest in any debate.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Guns?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 09:42:49 AM »
That's a good argument but it's filled with facts and logic, the two things that liberals will recoil back from just like the witch and water in the Oz movie.  I'm betting you don't even get a decent argument out of it because they know you're right.
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