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Author Topic: Sharp bands  (Read 2996 times)

Online bandmiller2

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Sharp bands
« on: August 26, 2018, 06:21:26 AM »
Do most of you studs sharpen your own bands.?? I would be lost without the ability to sharpen and set. Almost all band milling problems disappear with a sharp well set band. Its human nature if you have to pay $ 7/8 plus shipping to have a band ground you are going to run it too long into dull. If you have your own grinder it costs you almost nothing to tweak a band to perfection. A band that is not dull dull takes very little grinding to restore its pristine edge. I have had a Cats claw for about 15 years that has paid for itself many times over. There are newer "better"?? machines but sharp is sharp and my bands will cut beside the best. I have one or two sharpening customers, never had a complaint. Maybe sharpening is not for everyone but if you mill for hire and use a lot of bands you missing the boat if you don't service your own. (one old farts opinion) Frank C.

Offline A.O.

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2018, 07:10:31 AM »
Problem is for someone like me that just cuts for himself, those sharpeners are an expensive original outlay. I was half looking at the little one from Woodland Mills and its $700+..

Offline furu

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 12:07:42 PM »
Problem is for someone like me that just cuts for himself, those sharpeners are an expensive original outlay. I was half looking at the little one from Woodland Mills and its $700+..

All true; however, how much sawing do you do for yourself? 

If you spend say $200 in sharpening and shipping in a year  (not an unexpected number even for the part time hobbyist who saws once a month) then in 3.5 years you have paid for the Woodland Mills one.  In 8.5 years you would have paid for the Catsclaw (IMO a much better option).
There are much more expensive options and Richard (Cutting Edge Saw) would be the first to advise you but the Catsclaw does a good job as Bandmiller (Frank) said) If you spend say $300-400 in sharpening and shipping then the time frame gets rapidly shorter for the payback.  Yes it is an "expensive" outlay but can/will save a significant "chunk of change" if you continue sawing for an extended period of time. 

If you go through 5 bands a year then it probably does not make an economic justification  unless you just want to do your own sharpening.
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2018, 05:40:02 AM »
 
   Maybe sharpening is not for everyone but if you mill for hire and use a lot of bands you missing the boat if you don't service your own. (one old farts opinion) Frank C.

 Your 100% right Frank .  I use a Wright sharpener and I'd guess I've sharpened well over 10000 (  would have cost me around $80000) bands over the years and they cut good.. IT would take almost as long to box them up, ship them and unbox them as sharpening them which takes me 8 minutes a band as I only go around once. I have my sharpener set at 4 degrees or so  and have it set so it makes the gullet shallower after 3 or so sharpening's. Shallow gullet blades cut straighter over here.   Steve

 https://timberking.com/product/timberking-full-auto-sharpener/    Also Timberking makes a nice sharpener, a mill south of me has one which works good.

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2018, 03:49:06 PM »
Another nice feature with having a sharpener is like the other day when I killed 3 blades on 1 log. I started getting nervous I would not have enough to finish the job I started. Of course I don't have a sharpener and am planning to get one in the future sometime soon. I hate having to wait when its a Saturday morning and you suddenly realize you are out of blades. Just like your welding gas. always run out right after everything closes for the weekend.

Offline Kojba

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2018, 06:05:57 PM »
Currently buy new bands, and discard them after use.  It's getting a little pricey...  Woodmizer has a BMT 50 sharpener on sale for 1400., and I'm thinking of buying one.  The auto sharpen and set combo is on sale for 3800. or so, not bad, but I'm building a shop right now and need my sawmill cash to pay for roofing, windows, doors, etc..  I guess I use 15 bands a month or so, I charge for labor and bands are extra, so far no one is complaining.  It also cuts down on nail hits!   ;D ;D
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Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2018, 04:15:20 AM »

There are much more expensive options and Richard (Cutting Edge Saw) would be the first to advise you but the Catsclaw does a good job ....



My personal experience and opinion are spelled out pretty well here...

http://www.sawmillandtimberforum.com/index.php/topic,1624.0.html

Good thread for anyone sift through in it's entirety. 



Kojba - FYI, there is a GOOD reason you won't find much (if any) info on the WM BMS(HI)T50.   :-X



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Offline jb griffin

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2018, 10:24:01 AM »
I have used two cooks cat crap sharpen-at-it's and thats why I bought a wright w-37.
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Offline Kojba

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2018, 04:08:33 PM »
Is it paramount that a blade be "set" each time it is sharpened?  Could you sharpen a blade, and skip setting, once?  I thought if the blade was not run until absolutely dull, then maybe this might be possible.
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2018, 06:14:00 PM »


 Before Simonds decided to ruin their blades they came with enough set to run twice then set, if I set a little high I could set every second sharpening . After Simonds turned bad I've tried Lennox , Kasco, and Dakin Flathers.  Kasco was set way to light, Dakin Flathers was a little better set and Lennox was set nice.  I'm kind of leaning to Dakin Flathers  but have to give Lennox another try with the 3/4 pitch blades that I like to run.  Nothing so far is as good as the old  Simonds Red Streak 3/4 blades, those I could work my diesel hard and cut straight.   Steve

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2018, 07:40:23 PM »
I remove bands before their dull. If a band was cutting well when removed I check the set and many times there is no need to set. I have a small block with a dial indicator that I check the set on several teeth if their close they go right on the grinder. Inconsistency's with the cats claw usually can be traced to how you dressed the wheel, too rounded and the pusher can ride up slightly. The cat is very adaptable, very handy if you do some sharpening for hire. I made an adapter for mine to sharpen those satellite tipped wide bands used on some of the vertical Makita bandsaws. Timber framer said they work as well as new and saves him big bucks. There is a learning curve when using a band grinder, I have never used a CBN sharpener, maybe they eliminate it. Some folks can sharpen tools others just never quite get the hang of it. Frank C.   

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2018, 05:36:56 AM »
 

 I had trouble with the pusher riding up also when the face side of the wheel got a little to rounded, it was just gravity holding it down so I added a light spring to hold it down better which helped a lot.  Also went to a harder wheel that doesn't need to be profiled near as much keeping the face of the tooth more flat.  One other member put a little spacer on his sharpener so  the pusher doesn't drop down to the bottom of the gullet and pushed on the tooth a little higher where its not curved as much.   Steve

Offline jb griffin

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 08:33:23 PM »
There's a very good reason bandsaw blades are profiled the way they are.
I've attempted to saw with blades that were wicked sharp and had good set and yet wouldn't cut for shit. Alignment was good too. Explain that. (I know EXACTLY why, I'm just being a ass)
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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2018, 06:52:03 AM »
JB, not to worry mate, we sometimes have different experiences. Conversely I have found any reasonable gullet works the same as the next. I must have half a dozen cams for the cat but usually just use Timberwolf or Simons and grind them all to that profile. There is no magic gullet shape that's just advertising hype. Sometimes we all run into a band that appears real sharp but doesn't perform, I'm at a loss to explain that. If this crap was easy everyone would be doing it. Frank C.

Offline jb griffin

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2018, 10:17:38 PM »
I completely and totally disagree that gullet shape  is marketing hype. The gullet shape and depth is what DEFINES the speed the blade will say at. Hook angle is the definition of the profile and determines the use of the blade.

Example- 7/35 Kasco blades have a 7deg hook angle and a 35deg back angle, gullet depth of .280". This is my go to blade, it cuts everything from wo to syp at a good rate of speed and cuts flat.

7/40 Kasco 7deg hook 40deg back, gullet depth of .350". This blade is fricking amazing,  if you have the torque to pull it . It cuts OMG fast, approximately 50-100% faster than the 7/35, but it takes torque to run, really more than I have. I can pull it but I'm on the bottom  of the power required. I have sawed syp with this blade at work at well over 120 ft/min in 12-14" cuts

Don't try to tell me the gullet shape/depth don't matter.
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 05:28:39 AM »

 Gullet depth does matter and shallower depths cut straighter, I bought some blades with a deep gullet that didn't cut very straight when pushed hard, after maybe 4 sharpening's where gullet got shallower like the Simonds red steak 3/4 pitch blades those same blades cut way straighter.  I saw at a good feed rate using about all the power my 30 hp diesel has so I don't think I'm going to gain anything by using one of those hyped blades.  A mill south of me had the same experience with the gullet dept.  I'd really like to se a vid of one of those hyped blades cutting 20" dried out white oak a really high feed rates.  Sure the feed rate will be faster with a 50 hp diesel running a wide band cutting popular .  At any rate I'll  take cutting straight over fast any day.  .   Steve

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2018, 07:18:08 PM »
I'm referring to gullet shape not hook angle, my machine is set to give 6 degree tooth face. I have had no problems with 10 degree on new bands. I've never tried 4's. I've tried shallow gullets and they seemed to cut as good as any. Frank C.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 07:38:01 PM »

Over the years which is way to many I've put on a brand new 10 degree blade which dove down 1/4 inch or so in the first 3 feet of a cut then took the same blade and sharpened it at 4 degrees and it cut perfect 1/4 inch below the first cut. this happened at least 4 times, now my sharpener is set at 4 degree  and will not get changed.  Far as hype on these new blades that's all it is.  Steve

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2018, 07:32:45 AM »

Far as hype on these new blades that's all it is.  Steve



Steve,

I'm gonna politely/firmly disagree with you because that statement is FAR from the truth. 

Gullet shape and depth are quite important.  It is not as much of a factor/benefit in lower HP machines because of what jb griffin already mentioned.  To realize the full potential of these type blades (regardless the maker), the mill HAS to have the HP/Torque to pull it.



*WARNING* The following post is quite lengthy but for good reason.  But hopefully the time spent in putting it together will help educate and inform anyone reading.   ;D



When we were developing the Kasco 7/40 it went through several evolutions/versions.  Hook Angle and Back angle were IDENTICAL, gullet shape/depth different.  Each was tested over a broad demographic, but I'll share this one portion to shed a little light.

Testing done on a WM LT70 w/ 62hp.  Cutting fresh R Oak, Running Kasco 7/40 "test" profile blades that I personally made.



In narrower cuts, this profile cut great.  Hardly any sawdust left in cut, excellent feedrate, etc.

Now, same blade, same log.  But... it is now squared up and the cuts are getting wider.  More sawdust being left in cut but still excellent feed-rate. 

Cut width has increased into 16" range... Excessive sawdust, feedrate beginning to suffer and heat was becoming a factor.  .... Why ??  I'll explain later

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Switch blades to a deeper gullet.  Nothing changed other wise, same log, same tooth angles, same amount of set (+/- .001") 

The difference was immediate and obvious.  Most apparent was the reduction of sawdust left behind, 2nd was better feed-rate, less heat and even the engine sounded better.   Why???

Nothing, NOTHING changed except for the gullet depth.  But this was identical to feedback several other mills were saying also.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now for the explanation....  We have a 55 gal drum full of wet sawdust that we need to empty (tipping drum over is not feasible). 

To empty this drum we have  (2) options -

1) 1 gal. pail
2) 2-1/2 gal. bucket

Both the bucket and pail have same manufacturer, metal, shape, same taper, heck lets even make 'em the same silver color (gotta keep the OCD at bay  :laugh:)

To "power" these buckets we have (2) more options -

10 yr old boy
18 yr old young man

Stipulations are (1) scoop every 2 seconds, no slower.  Faster yes

See where this is going ??  If not, please keep reading....

Lets start with the 18 yr old and the (1) gal. pail.  No problem scooping (over flowing), lifting and dumping the sawdust.  Sawdust spills off/out of the the pail because it is filled beyond capacity.  20 yr old can go faster, but in doing so more gets spilled.  The 20 yr old has more power/stamina beyond the capability of the 1 gal pail.  Regardless, the barrel gets emptied, the job gets done in a time of 15 minutes

Now, give the 18 yr old the 2-1/2 gallon bucket.  Now he can push down, fill nearly fill full and dump.  Able to maintain the minimum (1) scoop every 2 seconds... sometimes a little faster.  20 yr old used less energy because able to get more per scoop.  Might not have had a full bucket EVERY time, but mostly full.  Little harder with the extra weight, but still kept the minimum rate.  Barrel got emptied in 7-1/2 minutes.


NOW lets imagine the same scenario, BUT, the ONLY change is the 10 yr old will be doing the job....

10 yr old can efficiently handles a 1 gal pail.  Can dig in and scoop, lift,  dump the wet sawdust without spilling much, if any.  Keeps the required (1) scoop/2 sec rate, sometimes a little faster if his Wheaties kick in.  Gets barrel emptied in 21 minutes.  "Good Job Little Fella".


10 yr old boy w/ 2-1/2 gal bucket.  Hard time digging into the drum, lacking power to lift full bucket, can only lift 2/3 full (1.6 gal) of sawdust and dump.  10 yr old is struggling to keep the required rate, begins to slow down.  Tired, sweating but gets it done in 18 minutes.  Little guy needs a break and a popsicle.  Good effort.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lets draw the parallels between 2 different sawmills...  For arguments sake lets use approx current diesel hp ratings of -

18 yr old =  55hp diesel
10 yr old =  36hp diesel

55 gal drum = Log being sawn

Buckets -

1 gal. = Shallow gullet Kasco 7/40 (early version)
2-1/2 gal = Current Kasco 7/40 production


Whew, glad I was able to keep this short.   ::)   :laugh:




I think any further explanation/parallels can be left to the reader(s).  Makes for some good thinkin' material.  Similarities and results are VERY typical when it comes to sawmills.  This isn't theory, but results.  Some of which I've personally experienced/witnessed.



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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2018, 09:03:32 AM »
   
  Richard..   Even the blades you sent me cut WAY straighter after I sharpened them to a shallower gullet and gave them more set .  I went by hype when I bought those   .   Steve

Offline drobertson

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2018, 02:10:52 PM »
Well now, it's a pull out the blade contest, I've been through all sides of this gammet, and can only add my limited experience. With  You all  I've not sawn all the types you guys have, just local, 50 mile radius typically. Hard woods oak and hickory, softwood pine, misc, fruit wood, and walnut, cedar of course. All I had and all I used was a baker face sharpener, 12v gizzmo, I settled in a 5degree angle, no setting. I would get 3-5 sharpens on a good band. It was only after switching to kasco  bands that many bands would saw near two thousand ft before switching, some i pulled i guess cause I had mercy on the band! All makes, do break, kascos  the least of them for me. As to short or deep guulets, for me it was determined more by the width of the cut than anything other, so like I said with my limited experience, I simply used what worked for me, and what I believed i could afford. Quality was my main concern, not always speed,

Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 05:15:16 AM »
Steve,

By "hype", are you referring to folks running Kasco blades ??  If so...

That would be a melting pot of folks from hobby level to production grade sawyers using - (3) different hook angles, (4) different back angles, (3) different gullet depths, 99% 7/8" tooth spacing and blade widths from 1-1/4" up to 2" with thicknesses from .042"-.055".

If "hype" is customers pleased with the product and service they recieved from me ...  Ummm, I take that as a HUGE compliment.

IMO, you're particular sawing situation in unique to the above list.  I personally dunno of anyone that has sawed the amount of spruce that you have.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

10 deg, .042', 3/4" pitch with .021" set

Changed TO 

4 deg, shallower gullet, more set all in one go.  (3) parameters changed, but now way of knowing which one had the biggest impact pos/neg.

Would've been a neat experiment to only change to 4 deg and accurately add .003" set (+/- 0015") but keep the deeper gullet (not that a 3/4" pitch gullet is very deep).  To late now, but it might've substantiated what this discussion is about... Right??

I change the 7/40 to a 4/40 quite often, why??  Because in tougher species like W. Oak and Hickory, I lack the grunt of a big diesel to muscle through it with 7 deg.  BUT, I want to keep that larger gullet capacity, especially when I start pulling finished boards.  But all that is 'nuther can of worms and a whole 'nuther subject that has it naysayers also, even if there's plenty of us over here on the E. Coast that has proven the benefits.

Each one of us has what "works" for our unique situation.  Maybe it's demographics, specs of mill, skillset/knowledge, species, etc.  We all want to find that "comfort" zone in our sawing.  But sometimes, thinking/stepping out side our box is what is best.  Lord knows we can all get in a rut and refuse to change because "I've done it for years that-away", or "They over at (insert name of manufacturer) said that this was their 'all purpose' blade and they KNOW what I need"..... list goes on.


Note- Had a reply similar to this one typed yesterday and it "went away" for no reason.   >:( 
Best to go somewhere else when that happened.


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 - Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
 - On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair
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Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 06:07:07 AM »

 Richard
 
 I've run the 3/4 pitch 1-1/4 .42 Simond Red Streak blades for years which were the straightest cut blade I've ever run and now Simonds changed them to a deep gullet and they wont cut straight.  I tried Kasco  blades about 3 years ago and they didn't cut straight until I sharpened them a few times and got the gullet shallower , then they cut pretty good, same thing with the 3/4 pitch blades you sent me. Since Simonds ruined their blades I've tried Kasco 3/4 pitch, Kasco 7/8 pitch, Lennox 7/8 pitch,  Dakin Flather 3/4 pitch and Dakin Flathers 7/8 pitch. I'd rate them first to last for cutting straight Dakin Flathers 3/4 then a tie  Lennox 7/8 and  Dakin Flathers 7/8 then Kasco 7/8 and as they came Kasco 3/4 was unacceptable , wouldn't even cut basswood straight.  Steve

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 06:58:36 AM »
Steve,

Yes, I remember our phone conversation well back in April.  And most the 3/4" pitch were returned to manufacturing for evaluation, 1/2 of which had been resharpened but (5) were still "virgins".

When it comes to quality, Kasco wants to know good or BAD.  Well, because of your blades being returned, it was found that a "kicker" in the manufacturing process may have been barely, BARELY contacting the very tips of the teeth at set intervals.  Problem identified, solution found and implemented.

That is how potential problems are dealt with and avoided (hopefully) in the future.  Without those (5) virgins, who knows.  It is manufacturing, where literally 10's of thousands of feet of varying band blades, several different lines and depts., are made in a single day.

Replaced with the Kasco .042, 4 deg. 7/8" pitch, in-lieu of a full refund or replacement 3/4" pitch blades, as you wanted to give a 7/8" pitch blade a try again.  Seemed it had been awhile since you had run any, of any brand, for quite awhile.  Not a problem...

No feedback on the Kasco 4 deg 7/8" until your post this morning. 

Dunno what else to say at this point.   :-\ 

« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:25:27 AM by Cutting Edge Saw Svc. »
Cutting Edge Saw Service, LLC -
 - Sharpening Services - Narrow Band and Woodworking
 - Portable/Custom Milling and Slabbing
 - On-Site Sawmill Maintenance/Repair
 - Phone: (304) 878-3343
 - cesawservice@gmail.com

Factory Direct Kasco WoodMaxx Blades

www.cesawservice.business.site

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Re: Sharp bands
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 07:27:55 AM »
Didn't mean to ignite such a fire storm here but it was getting too sleepy. Built my band mill 15 or so years ago and its even surprised me no problems other than an occasional bearing and belt. I started with a two cyl. Wisconsin 17 hp engine ,it did the deed but I later found out that I was turning the band too fast. I later set the mill up in a building with three phase power and converted to a 15 hp Baldor motor, a no brainer as electric is the balls. My go to bands are Suffolk Timberwolf 1 1/2" 7/8 .042. I have tried others and really can't see much difference. I sharpen to 6 degrees and set to about .022, I'm not anal give or take a couple of thou. The motor was a direct replacement for the engine even used the same two drive belts. I'm sure all of us here cut good lumber, just some of the details are a little different. We cling to what works for us on our mills. Next order of Bands I may try Kasco. I get very long band life usually a dozen sharpening's and have never had a band fatigue break. When the 1 1/2" bands are ground down to 1 1/4" they start to dive and are retired to the dumpster. Even a cheap Yankee can't complain about the service and quantity of lumber produced. I spent a couple of years operating a mizer LT-70 sharpening its bands and making adjustments, I have a lot of respect for that mill and its engineering. After two or three sharpening's the bands would break. You never get used to that bang when they break. I think band tension and how far into dull bands are run is what determines life of a band I'm sure there are other factors. Frank C.