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Author Topic: Sawmill version 2.0  (Read 19877 times)

Offline Crusarius

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Sawmill version 2.0
« on: November 26, 2018, 12:35:20 PM »
I just tried to send Drobertson a PM on another forum. apparently someone does not like him anymore. So I guess I will just post it over here since some of you guys seem pretty smart and have a very broad background of experience.



I am designing sawmill V2.0 and want to use linear bearings on everything. The biggest thing I am looking to do is believe it or not, a cantilever head. I want to use a pair 20mm linear rails with 4 bearings to support the cantilever mast.



hopefully these links work.










First link you can see linear bearings on the mast. hopefully these will keep the head from rotating. There will also be either a winch to raise and lower or ball screw (orange bar).



Second link you can see how I want to use the linear bearings on the bed. I am estimating the head will weight about 200 pounds. Max of 250.



Can you give me any insight on this? or is this out of your realm of experience?



thanx for any help.



Offline furu

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2018, 08:56:45 PM »
Links are not functional
Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline joasis

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 05:49:38 AM »
I just tried to send Drobertson a PM on another forum. apparently someone does not like him anymore. So I guess I will just post it over here since some of you guys seem pretty smart and have a very broad background of experience.



I am designing sawmill V2.0 and want to use linear bearings on everything. The biggest thing I am looking to do is believe it or not, a cantilever head. I want to use a pair 20mm linear rails with 4 bearings to support the cantilever mast.



hopefully these links work.










First link you can see linear bearings on the mast. hopefully these will keep the head from rotating. There will also be either a winch to raise and lower or ball screw (orange bar).



Second link you can see how I want to use the linear bearings on the bed. I am estimating the head will weight about 200 pounds. Max of 250.



Can you give me any insight on this? or is this out of your realm of experience?



thanx for any help.





Recipient's name:
    drobertson
Recipient's email address:
    willowriverww@gmail.com
Ladwig Construction
Hennessey, Oklahoma
    405 853 1563

If anyone has any issues, I can be reached at the number above, anytime.

Offline joasis

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 05:50:22 AM »
He is a member here but hasn't been around in awhile.
Ladwig Construction
Hennessey, Oklahoma
    405 853 1563

If anyone has any issues, I can be reached at the number above, anytime.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 06:37:30 AM »
ok lets try this again. NOTE: THIS IS A CANTILEVER HEAD DESIGN


back side. orange vertical bar will be ball screw. the sawframe will be fastened to vertical linear bearings. I just haven't done that detail work yet.



front view. this one show the linear bearings on the side of the bed. Not sure how well they will survive in that orientation thats what I am hoping to get feedback on.



front view of rail detail. I wasn't crazy about having the linear rails down the side of the bed unprotected. So I added the 2x2 box to protect them then realized I can put the bearing on top of it to make it in the same plane. The bottom bearing will still be in tension.




Offline joasis

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 06:50:20 AM »
Now I am curious, do you have a link for the linear bearings you will be using? My concern would be the cantilever design not being stiff enough...I have an idea for one with the cantilever, but using an 8 inch x 3 inch rectangular tube, 1/4 in wall or greater, and using #20 asme rail top and bottom, with precision rollers....that would be the upright post. And to make the upright stiff, using 1/2 inch wall 4x4 tube and using a slip bearing between the posts.

Just an idea, thanks for sharing your design...brain candy.
Ladwig Construction
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If anyone has any issues, I can be reached at the number above, anytime.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 07:31:40 AM »
the linear bearings are cheap chinese ones on ebay. 20mm version. My plan for the mast is 2 - 2x6x.188 wall. With the 6" cross section I would not expect much flex only being 60" tall. I will probably get more flex out of the connection detail than the mast. especially with the threaded rod for raise and lower where I am thinking about. Big trick with that is protecting it.

Unfortunately I have never worked with linear bearings. So I do not know much about designing with them and load range and direction capabilities. One of the guys I work with says they have the same load rating in all directions. If that is the case then I am golden. Still concerned about opening up the housing or breaking it in half with the loads it will see.

I figure the head with engine and everything is going to range 200-250 pounds. Most of that weight will be with 20" of the mast so should not be terrible to support. I do wonder how much it is going to bounce and flex at the end though.

I was looking at woodmizer LT40 and it looks like the use a single 5" square mast on a 45 degree angle. I can see that twisting a bunch.

Online Ox

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 09:07:23 AM »
Interesting idea for sure.

I'm of absolutely no help whatsoever.  I have zero experience with linear bearings.

I am curious, though.  Why build a different mill?  Why a "better mousetrap" if the original one does the job?
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 09:16:22 AM »
After using the mill for a while I found some shortcomings I want to overcome. Plus I really enjoy fabricating. That was half the fun of the sawmill.

It is also a fun challenge to attempt since it will be things I have never dealt with before. My projects are getting more elaborate. One day I may actually add computer control.

btw I have the first coat of color on the trailer :) but I am not going to tell you what it is cause I know your still dying to know :)

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 07:09:16 PM »
Cruiser, when I built my band mill I gave serious consideration to a cantilever design, just too many problems. A four post is much more stable rugged and cheaper and easier to construct. The moment of force on those linear bearings is huge and the tube to support them will have to be heavy. Vee groove castor wheels on roof top angle iron is stable and will carry a load. If you want to cut large stuff make the throat wider. Only my opinion mate,  if you want a cant, I hope you prove me wrong. Frank C.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 03:52:59 AM »
 
 I'm with Frank, no way would I want to try and build a cantilever mill. No advantage over a wide 4 post mill at all.  Design lots of clearance above the blade and have the blade go above the deck as high as the biggest log you want to cut.   Steve

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 06:41:46 AM »
Thanks guys. I am just playing with design right now. If I get an offer for the right price on my current mill, it will go down the road, and I will probably build this one.

The plan is dual width capable so I can run 158" blade for a 31" cut width or a 176" blade for a 40" cut width. The dual width will save me money on blades but still give me the ability to cut wide stuff.

I have had a few times where the 4 post has gotten in the way. one of the things that annoy me about it is having to push the carriage that extra 12" to get the board I just cut off of the cant. Without the extra posts in the way I could just grab it and slide it off.

What I find really funny is Woodmizer is making 4 post mills now. but on the 4 post design they are still a cantilevered head. The best thing about that is ppl that were formerly against the cantilever head on the woodmizers are buying them thinking they are a true 4 post. the LT15 is the perfect example of that.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 06:43:42 AM »
oh yea, I also made my bed 50" wide. I cannot reach all the way across it. the next bed design I have changed that so it makes it much more challenging to have 4 post design.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 07:09:25 AM »
 

 I don't think the WM 450 is a cantilevered mill at all, a true 4 post twin rail mill. I'll bet in a few years the cantilevered WM will be gone.  Steve

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 07:43:55 AM »
you are correct the 450 is definitely dual lift points. But the LT15 is still a cantilever head. The wide is for sure but I think all of them are.

Online Ox

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 08:31:42 AM »
(with a mock arrogant tone of disdain, nose held high) I don't care what color it is - I'M not racist.

Actually, I kind of am to a point.  I think everybody is, it's just some can't admit it.  Like it or not the first damn thing you notice about a person is their color/nationalitly, etc.  That, and the fact that whenever I had a "problem" with "people" out in public in the past it was not an evil, racist white person.  Like a pistol being pointed at me, attempted theft of seafood off my liftgate, and jumping out in front of me and walking deliberately slow while staring hatefully at me.  They weren't white countrified fellas like us.  Just sayin'.

Sorry for the topic drift.  Onward and upward!

I too once liked fabricating.  I've done enough now that I've had my fill of it and it's not enjoyable anymore.  Same goes for painting equipment/machinery. 

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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 08:59:00 AM »
My Son and I built an oversised WoodMiser cantilevered head design. It was overbuilt but it would cut 37" wide table slabs all day long.

 You will have to build the mill very solidly to prevent twisting if you use a single upright post. We used 2--4" posts of 3/16 wall and the same 3/16" for most of the rest of the build, and teflon like sliders and DON'T make anything that slides without sufficient room for stuff to get in and not fall out, like bark, wood chips, etc. Our head weighed about 400 pounds and we used as much scrap metal as we could find. We used 13" trailer wheels, 12" would have been better, so our head was thicker than with pulleys, and much cheaper. 

 The main beam will be the strongest part to build. That is where the most overhang weight will play out. I know nothing about linear bearings, especially keeping them running free. We always washed down with a water hose every time we were done sawing. We used high quality bearings to run the carriage down the beam on inverted angle track. Cam followers would have been better, but we couldn't get them at that time.

 We hung the sawhead from a 90 degree trailer winch mounted above the posts and at a balance point on the head through a pulley and back up to the winch. Used an outboard motor starter motor, modified for both directions of rotation. Balancing the head weight makes everything go easier.

 If you have any questions, just ask. I'm not an engineer, but, we were successful and had minimal problems with the mill. I might be able to come up with some photos also.  Good luck with your design.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 09:11:23 AM »
Thanx harold my current plan is 2 2x6x3/16 for the mast. That will have plenty of rigidity.

It is funny you say you built everything heavy. when you look at guys building on the FF they are talking 3/8 and 1/2" wall. thats heavy I consider 3/16 "structural" Alot of what I am designing I could get by with 1/8" but the different corner radius screws up alot of planning so I will use all 3/16.

My lifting idea is either going to be the ball screw or a winch mounted on the sawframe if I use a winch it will be mounted to the sawframe then run over a pulley on the top of the mast then back down to the sawframe. that will give me the ability to balance it fairly well. plus then I will not have to have long wires dangling up the mast for the raise lower motor. So I am torn between winch and cable or ball screw and wheelchair motor.

I guess the real question is what will be easier to put the arduino setworks that i will design and build on. Probably doesn't make any difference cause it will just be a rotary encoder with power on and off.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 11:45:51 AM »
 :laugh: :laugh:  Yeah about the FF. I used to be a member at around #300 or so. can't remember exactly. I didn't exactly fall in line all the time, and was constantly harassed by a couple of members, especially one that became a moderator. Anyway, over there I was told we couldn't build such a thing, for many different reasons.

 We used a drum switch and rheostat for the feed speed and toggle switches for the up/down and clamp, and a hydraulic power dump trailer unit for the loader. 

 Just wait for my new build. It's gonna be a corker. !!  ;D  I abandoned the big bandmill I had started. This one is going to be a power feed version of my highly modified Peterson Swing Blade.  ::) :o

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 12:22:27 PM »
Definitely anxious to see that. I almost bought a swingmill. I am not regretting the bandsaw at all though.

The more ppl that tell me I can't the more I want to, and usually do. :) I hate naysayers.

I did think about putting a circle saw blade on my mill to put the saw marks on for all the rustic craze out there. Just enough to leave marks on the face. was going to use a 10" blade then realized that wouldn't have the right look.

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2018, 12:24:12 PM »
how do you power the hydraulic dump unit? I was contemplating that for log rolling and loading. But I only want 1 engine I may end up a second battery on the bed though since my ideas for a bus bar to power bed functions is not working well.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2018, 02:57:59 PM »
Quote
I may end up a second battery on the bed

Exactly. We used a 12V winch motor capable of powering the unit. Bought both units from Surplus Center in Nebraska. This was 17 years ago, though. I modded the single action spool valve to power both ways, using ball valves. Our whole mill used 12V except for the 24 HP Honda engine.  We spend about $2600.00 for the whole build, including the new Honda engine.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2018, 03:06:24 PM »

   Don't be afraid of a 6 hp gas running the hydraulics on the deck, its a better system than a electric hyd pump, or a main engine hyd pump running through a energy chain.  Some mills have a main engine hyd pump with a overhead cable to run the hyd hoses which I think is a good system but might be hard to setup on a portable mill and it would shorten the life of the hoses bending and unbending..  Steve

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2018, 04:15:12 PM »
I definitely do not want another engine. Was even hoping to avoid a second battery but after my bus bar idea got the kabosh cause I never thought of the extra current draw it looks like the second battery is the winner. May be ok though. without pull start if I have an issue I will have a spare battery to finish up the day.

If I could I would love to make the entire mill electric. but for a portable mill that sure would make a long extension cord.

Was also no liking the idea of the constant hose flex or electric lin flex from having the battery on the carriage with snake tray.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Sawmill version 2.0
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2018, 07:45:17 PM »
With the hydraulics all mounted within the frame/bed, there is minimal flexing/bending. Only feature is we used a #10 underground romex type cable,  somewhat flexible stranded wire coiled  like a spring. It would extend from the frame to the sawhead as it raised above the log. Never had a problem with it.

 The Honda solid state charger would not keep up with the battery needs on a long day sawing,  so I mounted a Delco 1 wire 60A alternator belted to the Honda 2 groove drive pulley. Another nice thing about the extra battery, you can stick a charge in it from your tow vehicle. Electric motors always start, even if you have to jumper a battery or directly to the motors.  ;)