Integrity: Whats it realy mean?

[Kirk Allen]

I would like to know everyones thoughts on what integrity means to them.  I am pretty tolerant of most things............to a point but when a person preaches integrity or allows themselves to be placed on a pedestal by others who "think" he has integrity when his actions prove he does not it really burns me up. 

For example: Person "A", (we will call him the Boss for this example) on numerous occasion's has promoted himself and his business as one that stands on integrity.  When times got tough the Boss will, in direct violation of terms and conditions he agreed to, encourage others (customers) to do something that benefits him financially.  The very encouragement is in violation of the rules yet since it benefits him he says or does nothing.  In fact he does the opposite of what is right.  He does what is WRONG and promotes others taking action to pad his pocket.

When a person knowingly encourages people to do something that he KNOWS is in violation of rules he agreed too does this person still have integrity?  I think not.

Liars are liars!
Thieves are thieves!
Manipulators are still manipulators
and
Integrity is doing the RIGHT thing when no one is watching!   

At what point in life will people stop making excuses for these types of people because they "feel" good about the person or because the person was nice to them?  The type of people I am talking  about are in many cases nothing more than a con artist yet in some cases they don't see it in themselves. 

What I would call "real" men and friends in my life I could count on one hand.  These are the type of men that at their own expense would make things right even if others did not know anything about what ever was wrong.  That is integrity in my book.

Cowards are the types that know the liars and manipulators ways are wrong but do or say nothing.  Those are the sheep in this world that are leading us down a dangerous path! 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Geeee, I guess I fell off the wagon. 

Sometimes it is in the eye of the beholder, or the filter we use to look at life. 
 I work daily at following through with intentions and "promises" to folks.  However, things sometimes just do not fall into place and I put whole bunches of scrambled eggs on my face.  Remorse sets in and an apology follows close behind.  I have found that sometimes I completely forget and have to be remineded and that is when the eggs really get thick and I work a repaying for days and days, or forever.

[Kirk Allen]

I hear exactly what your saying Frank.  Most men of integrety go out of their way to make it right. 

The ones that burn me up are the ones that promote themselves and even when wrong smacks them in the face they defend their actions at all cost instead of doing whats right. 

[Stevem]

You have a wagon Frank?  You never told me!!

Kea,  I like your leader line of, "Integrity is doing the RIGHT thing when no one is watching"  That is such a deep statement that few people really comprehend it.  It's one of the basic tenants that this country was founded on.  And one that is being lost.

Other such statements as, "Because it's legal doesn't make it RIGHT!"  and "Say what you mean and mean what you say", "Because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD", and "You can't be all things to all people", are in the same category.   Lots of truths and lots of depth with little public understanding or care to understand.  We tend to run on default values and if a situation is different than our normal we just don't see it. 

I think most people want to do the Right thing but they get stuck in situations beyond their knowledge base.  (I also believe that there are people that are just plain evil).  Good people make promises to do things with no concept of what's involved, not knowing all they should and then for what ever reasons can't or don't keep the promise.  Do they lack integrity or are they just stupid?  Is there a difference?   
I had a pastor once tell me, "I'm not who you think I am and I'm not who I think I am.  I am who I think you think I am"  People have a drive to be liked by other people and try to do and say things that will make them liked.  We all tend toward being camillions to blend in.  (You should hear me talk southern when I travel south)  It's not a bad thing, it's a survival thing.  But there are extrems so typified in current politics.  Take a survey of what people want and then say what they want to hear even if it's bad for them and the country.  Don't stand for anything, stand for everything. 

"Liars are liars", and I have no use for them but don't most people accept white lies?   Do you tell your two headed child that he's normal and beautiful?  Where's the line?  If I lie to make you feel good that's OK, but if I lie for my benefit that's bad.  Huh?  I spent over two years trying to see morality as a black and white thing and just couldn't do it.  Too much gray in the world.  And what's "normal" in one society is not in another.  Does being "normal" have something to do with integrity?  Is being dependable the same as having integrity?  Can I depend on you to lie?  Question: How do you tell when politicians are lying?  Answer: Their lips are moving!  I had one person explain to me that it was all right for him to lie because he was a politician and it was a personal matter, it was to be expected and accepted.  The president?  I hold some classes of people to a higher standard.  Should I?  Should Christians be held to a higher standard?  Should priests?  If so Why?  And try and explain to your ten year old that he should obey the laws while you're driving in a 55mph zone doing 60mph.  "Everybody does it", doesn't make it right.  Nor does, "Nobody got hurt (this time)".  And what's a victimless crime?  Do you believe a robber that says' "I'm going to kill you."  And if you believe him what then?  Do you kill him first if you can?     

If we examine ourselves closely we are all full of seeming moral contradiction based on a given situation, who we are dealing with, where we are both physically and mentally at the time and based on our own standards of conduct.  We tend to see ourselves as wholly integrated morally while other see holes in our moral standards.  Something about the mote in your eye and the board in mine I believe. 

But we need standards, we need laws and we need a value system to know the differences between right and wrong.  Something to guide us and know what to expect from others, something not too flexible.  Ponder the differences in moral (having standards), immoral (in violation of standards), and amoral (having no standards), or the differences between interested (cares about), uninterested (doesn't care), and disinterested (just tell me the facts) . Should a Judge, who's supposed to be disinterested, also be amoral and only concerned with legality?  Can he be?  Will he?  Do you want that?  Can you have it?

So I guess that for you to have integrity you should do what I expect and think is the right thing.  For me, as long as I have (some) standards and try to meet them then I have integrity.
 
Encase you're wondering I spent two years in college as a philosophy major and had to change because I was totally confused.  Still am I think, just not sure.

Stevem
   

 
 

[JP Sinclair]

Kirk-Good point.  There are very few in my lifetime that I say have true integrity.  Lucky for me, I've been fortunate enough to have a circle of friends who have repeatedly proven to me that they have integrity because they were there for me even when the times were bad and there was nothing in it for them other than a greater friendship. 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Well, Steve, it is kind of hard sometimes to carry as lantern through the city or the country seeking and honest person.  The wind blows toooooo hard at times from others speaking.

[Kirk Allen]

Steve you make some great points.  Part of the challenge of holding anyone to a standard is knowing what standard to use.

Common sense is not so common!

I do my best to live by both mans laws and Gods laws (Christian) but regulary fail in the eyes of my maker...................however he knows I will fail and its how I deal with that failure that I believe makes the difference.

I see people in leadership roles manipulate people and things for there own gain regulary then get on a soap box about integrity and it makes me want to puke.  These people need exposed for what they are.  Those who choose to follow after knowing the truth, well they are either stupid or we come full circle to haing to determine the definition of truth.

That is something I think some people are working on re-defining for our society.

[Stevem]

You're right, "Common sense is not so common".  One of the things I've realized is that common sense is not intuitive, it's something you are taught or learn over time and through experience and some people are so stuck with what they know they are not open to learning anthing new (or different).  They won't open their minds to new things.  But one must also realize that if you open your mind too much your brains fall out. 
A political situation would be the "War on poverty" thing.  Throwing money has not fixed the problem in 30 years.  Common sense should tell us to quit throwing money at the problem and at least try something different.  But  the current idea is to throw more money at it.
The American mentality of "On Sale" is another example of flawed common sense.  If it's on sale it must be a good deal, right?  But I've seen stores close for two days while they prepare for a big sale.  What they were doing is marking up every price tag so they could mark it down for the sale with many items now costing more, on sale, than they were priced the prior week.  We also see "new stock" marked down 30% for our weekly special.  Common sense tells you if they can mark it down 30% they are charging too much to start with but most people get caught by the "on sale" and ignore what they should know is the truth.   

One of the criteria for integrity I think, is doing what you said you'd do.  So you have to be careful of what you say and promise.  That's not an excuse for no commitment just a selection criteria for what you commit to.  One safe course would be never promise anything, but that's a bit severe and doesn't really meet the goal.  No commitment = no keeping promises.  Thus by my criteria if I never (have to) keep a promise I can never have integrity.
The other extreme is promise everything (politics?) and then excuse, justify or ignore the 80% of what you don't do. Thus if I keep some promises I have some integrity?

A more reality based idea of what integrity is, if YOU consider important what I consider important and make it a priority in YOUR life.  If you do, then I see you as having integrity.  I think a guiding principle here would be, "Get your eye off yourself."

On a military mission in the Bahamas we had to deal with the local population for certain services and supplies.  One of the standard answers we'd get on a request for something was, "No problem man, I'll do it real soon" and it would never happen or only happen if it became critical for us and we could make it happen now.   As frustrating to us as it was I don't think the lack of response had anything to do with integrity.  It was just a way of life for these people to not take anything serious.  Tomorrow would happen one way or another.  The TV add for Seven-up "Don't worry, be happy" has a basis in truth.  (Now parties were a priority item down there.)  As a partial solution they taught us to just not ask for things.

Integrity is also being ready and able to say "I made a mistake" or "I'm sorry".  But instead people use excuses they think we'll accept.  Classic example of that was the, "Sorry, I was drunk" as if that explained everything.  Why not, "Sorry, my cat was sick!" or "the dog ate my homework", or (and I like this one), "My was was getting pregnant and I wanted to be there."   One excuse is as good as another.   

My sister has a giant killer for such,  "Steve, you know better than that" 

Enough, I ramble.

Steve

                 

[joasis]

As an added note, we can say integrity will be the standard here.....what we said when we began our little forum will remain the benchmark for the future. I know we will never have to back up and say anything.

[Kirk Allen]

I think a guiding principle here would be, "Get your eye off yourself."

Amen to that!

[Kirk Allen]

What kind of person is it that defends another when there is absolutly no question the person did something so wrong it borders on criminal? 

I know we see this in polotics but I am talking about low class nobodies that milk the system and people for their survival and they have others defend their actions. It just blows me away how some people can defend "wrong" when its so clear.

[joasis]

I know by saying this, it will inflame some, but the fact remains, when a person or persons "encourage" others to "click" on adds they are not interested in, just to generate money, it speaks volumes about integrity. It also is akin to promoting theft....and those that push for it are thieves, plain and simple.....sure, it is only Google adds and the internet, and no one really suffers, but in fact, it is dishonest. Anyone that defends this would have a hard time explaining character and integrity to me, or anyone else, and probably wouldn't understand anyway.

I haven't checked in awhile, and haven't received a check for the adds that pay our little forum's expenses, but it would hardly matter if I didn't get it. The owners, Frank, Kirk, and I, are all self employed, work for what we have, and don't need to resort to begging or BS to pay our bills.

Integrity also means paying your own way....not looking for others to pay for you.....

[Stevem]

"What kind of person is it that defends another when there is absolutly no question the person did something so wrong it borders on criminal?"

They are called lawyers.

[Kirk Allen]

Steve, again, you hit the nail on the head. I can deal with them better however as they have taken an oath to defend their clients and although our judicial system has many flaws its still one of the best in the world.

Its the ones who defend those who deserve no defense because of their lies and deception that blow me away.  Friends will take a set of keys away from a drunk freind to save their life and maybe others but whenit comes to other matters they do nothing or defend the actions of their freinds, even if the freind is lying to people.  Those are the ones I have no use for. 

[Stevem]

I'm not really a peace maker but I like to see people at peace with themselves.  You've probably heard this before so this is a repeat:

"Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me."

I have no use for liars, they'll do anything.

I had a sister that raped my parents estate for the benefit of herself and her only child to the detriment of his four other cousins (two of mine). She was not welcome in my house after that.  Decision made!  And she knew it.  She's dead now and I'll never know if she changed and I don't really care.  What I lost was the nephews and niece who I feel had there minds poisoned about me.  That is a great loss to me.   
You can't change people, only they can change themselves.  But we can distance ourself as I did.  If people are that way, it's their problem not yours, all we can do is not support that action by word or deed.  You can express dislike for their actions and let them be aware of that dislike.    Eventually (we hope) such people have enough reasons to change, become more honest and have more integrity, see the light so to speak and regret their past.  Who we are is spoken more loudly by our actions than our words. 

If a child makes a mistake do you condemn the child or do you condemn the action?  I submit that adults are just older children.  But I don't like all children.

We all tend to carry things around with us that we don't need.  They are like rocks in a backpack.  We need to throw those rocks away and get on traveling through life without the extra burden. 

And we all tend to fix the blame and not fix the problem. 

And if a friend didn't defend you when you were attacked in front of others would they be a friend?   

[Kirk Allen]

Couldnt agree more Steve.

"And if a friend didn't defend you when you were attacked in front of others would they be a friend?" 

I think the key to that statement is being man enough to defend "anyone" when they are right.  Defending a freind or anyone else for that matter when they are clearly in the wrong makes no sense and a true friend we hope would understand that.  I have three people for sure that I can say are true friends who would do just about anything I ask but at the same time, they wont hesitate to keep me in check when I am wrong.  Thats what friends do, publicly or privatly.......................in my opinion.      I am finding that some peoples definition of "freind" has a much different meaning than mine.     

Some wont let their freinds drive drunk but they will let them lie and steal and even support/defend it.  Some friend.   

[Kirk Allen]

A recent interesting story was shared relating to Google Adds and Add sense words for internet sites.  One of the members of another forum shared how Google Ad sense was working or not working for him.  What I found interesting was the events that followed that thread.  A member stated in part:

“some competitors will use up all your daily money by clicking your ad over and over”

This comment stirred what appears to be integrity in one of the members who posted this response. 

“It really burns me up to know that people will do things like that. It is becoming more prevalent as time goes by. More and more people have absolutely no morals anymore; if it benefits them they don't care who it hurts. I could keep going and make this a really long post, but I will get off my soapbox and try not to stir everyone else up. Good luck with your ads.”

What I really like about the above quote is the reference of how more and more people have absolutely no morals anymore.  I couldn’t agree more.  He even hits the nail on the head by reiterating the fact that these very people who lack what I call integrity, or morals as the poster references, do things that benefits themseleves and they don’t care who it hurts. 

What does this have to do with integrity?  Knowing how to put pieces of a puzzle together paints an interesting picture.  Draw you own conclusion!  The owner of the very site this was on makes this comment to its members:

“One thing you can do if you don’t like a particular ad, you can click on it and cost them some money and make a few cents for the Xxxxxxxx Xxxxx at the same time.”  (name of the site removed)

Isn’t this very thing what the other person is talking about?  If you don’t like an ad click on it and costs them some money while at the same time make money for the owner who apparently doesn’t care who it hurts?

Then members of the same site acknowledge doing just as the owner suggested: 

“Heck I about wore out my mouse and clicker finger putting ole John in the poor house” (John McCain Add)
Good advice Xxxx, anytime I can help out by spending someone else's money I'm all for it

Where have peoples integrity gone? 

One of the members posted on a thread that has now since been removed and I presume because it exposed some truth to the actions of the owner but thats my speculation.  A member outlined that encouraging people to click on the adds is against the Google policy and that is probably why the adds no longer exist.  Imediatly the guy got lectured by an Admin who was stupid enough to claim the owner never encouraged anyone to click on the adds.  In fact, these are the words of that Administartor. 

"There is not but one owner and he only talked about the Google ads in a way as to introduce them. You won't find that he asked people to click on them, incessantly, to make the forum money."

Is that so   I dont think the statement is true.  In fact, in my opinion to make such a claim would be a lie.  The person who points this out I suspect got banned as I know they dont like it when they get questioned.  What a concept.  Accountability to the truth! If its not encouraging we at least know its "Advice" to click on them as one of the posters acknowleged by saying:

"Good Advice Xxxx"

To prevent any loss in translation, this is what the owner said about the adds.  You tell me, is this or is this not asking people to click on them, incessantly or other wise, to make the forum money.

“If a couple hundred members or so everyday looked at just one ad each that interested them, it would be an awesome help.”

"For example if you use the new google search to search for say, candles, and choose to visit the results at the top of the page. The Forum gets credit for that. So, we can earcn revenue not just by what they return here, but by simply looking for what you need on any subject.
So, please look for and use the google search at the top of every page when ever you need to look for anything on google!"

Hum??? SO PLEASE LOOK FOR AND USE .....................  That is not encouraging people?  What a sad day when a grown man who I thought was a whole lot smarter than this would even consider trying to convince anyone the actions of the site owner was not encouraging others to help him make money, and all at the expense of others.  Such actions lack integrity in my opinion.

Integrity.  Its doing the right thing when when no one is watching!  What is it called when doing the wrong thing while the whole world is watching?  Stupid? 
 
Stevem you are so correct!  A persons actions always speak louder than their words! 

[Kirk Allen]

After mowing the grass and giving this stuff some thought I realized how self serving some people really are. 

Charge people for a banner add, then encourage the membership to click on the Google Ads, which many of them were adds from the very paying sponsors.  I wonder how the sponsors feel about paying on both ends at the same site.   

[Stevem]

Just read that Al Gore increased his electrical usage by 10% as he turns his house green and people are still looking to him to save the world from over heating. 
We have a situation in this country where the "Leaders" have no integrity and people accept it and re-elect them.  But it all depends on what your definition of "is" is.
Situational ethics, it all depends, no absolutes and it's OK to lie if your motives are pure or you're trying to get elected.  And logic and reason are replaced by emotion and calls to save me from my stupid decisions.  Our children learn by example, ours or somebody elses.
We do need to "call" these people on their stupid.
Our local school board spent $50,000 on an out-of-town consulting firm to get a list of needed repairs so it could sell a new bond issue to the public. 
Sometimes I think just you and me are the only smart ones out there and at times I have my doubts about you!

[Kirk Allen]

What was it that Forest Gump says in the movie.........Stupid is as Stupid does. 

I think its pretty comical how Al Gore now has a spot light on him for his "green" living.  He brings Hipacracy to a new level. 

I used to be blind to many things but once I understood the importance of questioning just about everything I quickly realized its time to "call" these people on their Stupid.  (well put Steve)

What is it with an ownership position or leadership position that makes some people think they are all of a sudden smarter, more important or needed?

[joasis]

PT Barnum and Hitler come to mind about lies and fools that follow them.

I have thought about how we can post the operating expenses and what it takes to keep this little domain operating, and folks, there just isn't a lot to tell. We don't need the money, we are covered for more then a year right now. It takes very little time to manage (at least from me, Kirk does it all) or moderate.....and we are not relying on anything to carry the load.

The best part of integrity and this forum is the fact we will not trash our original statement....this is free for all, members and advertisers alike, and hopefully will grow to be a good resource when information is needed....nothing more or less. We are not running a charity here, nor will we ever. The most anyone will be asked for is on the prayer request board, and that is up to the members, no paypal required!

I need to get off the soap box, but as I end this, let me say that I really do not consider "ownership" of this forum to be important....in a way, all of our contributing members own it....if our whopping adsense money dries up, we will carry the cost without complaint, since it costs so little to do, no matter if we serve the interests of 10 members or someday 1000.....it will not change things here, or ever give rise to moderators who feel the need to whip the members into line.....I am still waiting for a phone call or a challenge from one of these "men of character" to call me, or maybe try to bully me or Kirk.....all I can say is pack your lunch!

[Kirk Allen]

It all comes back to integrety.  This forum is what the members make it.  Without them its just another web site.  The difference between this site and others is that you will not be mislead or taken advantage of. 

I departed another sight long before being banned because of lack of integrity.  That site had revenue, as reported by one of the Administrators who asked me to assist in raising money and my own personal experience, and below are ball park figures coming in while at the same time ongoing fund raising and claims of not being able to cover server expenses.  You be the judge!  Truth or Lies?  Integrity or Lack of? 

$225 per month for main page sponsors x 9 = $2025 per month
$150 a month for sponsors on the other pages x 6 = $900 per month
$20 a month for business links x 19 = $380 per month
? 5% commission from on-line sales
? from Ebay sales
? - 10% from private company sales returned to the forum.
? - Private Member Fund Raising Drive

Thats $3305 per month.  Now I realize things may have changed since three years ago when these prices were given to me by one of the Administrators of the site and since everything else has gone up I can only assume these have also but I am going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume only HALF of this is generated.   That would be $1605.00 PER MONTH and with reported server costs in the $600-$700 a month range (OURS IS $5.00 PER MONTH) it makes you wonder why a private fund raising committee is needed.  Don't forget that these amounts do not include the Ebay auctions, private fund raising donations, or on-line sales commissions. 

I got this email from one of the members after their donation that I found interesting. 
“I think Dollars signs have taken over the Forum. I know when he was talking about how his job screwed him over and was having hard times, well anyway I mailed him a check.  You know I never even got so much as a Thank You out of Xxxx.  I know at the Xxx  Xxxxx I introduced my self and he acted like he didn't know who I was.  So I would say that's pretty bad when somebody gives you $XXX and you don't even remember the persons name or have the decency to even say thank you.”
 
Accountability is something we strive for so if you think we are doing something wrong or not being straight, please log in and publicly express you views.  Thats a step that helps to ensure integrity and accountability.  I much rather live in a glass house where everyone can see what goes on and help stear the ship than be locked up in a cabin hoping a select few can save my back side. 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Some of us even paid over $100 for a quart of honey to help in the early stages of the job loss issue.  Then, I went and sent an eighty pound burl to be sold for fund raising and the guy decided to keep it himself and not sell it for the purpose it was intended.  He eventually gave it to a friend of mine, that in turn made a gift for his mother.  My friend asked if I wanted paid by him for the burl and I of course said no, since he was making a gift for his mother.  I spent eighty dollars sending that burl and then this all happended.  I had sent a note to the site owner telling him I wanted paid for the burl  for the shipping and the value; at $2.00 sa pound, not so much as a return comment was recieved.  So much for a persons word.

[Kirk Allen]

A persons word?  What a concept    I can remember the day when a mans word was his bond.  No contracts, no handshakes!  Just his word.  Those days are long gone............................for some folks! 

[joasis]

I fired two guys this week....all they had to do was tell the truth and not cover up mistakes, and they would still have jobs...apathy....the easiest way out.

Here is a story for you my Grandfather told me long ago:

A man ran out of firewood, and being lazy, he began tearing boards off his house to warm himself...soon, the house was a wreck, and no matter how large a fire he could build, it failed to keep him from being cold and miserable. A man's character is like that house...if you tell lies to make yourself comfortable, then soon your character will be a ruin, and you will never be trusted again.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Careful, Jay, you may find yourself in court.