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What does it really cost to keep a Forestry type Forum up????

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Buzz Sawyer:
I have often wondered how expensive or inexpensive it really is  to run a forum like this.


What kinda expenses and labor are involved?....I have heard what surely must be ludicrous exaggerations of thousands a year..... and thousands of hours of hard labor.....with expenses galore....
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the software free and the server space cheap...with huge amounts of on line storage nearly free???

......and don't they back up their forums and all their content every single night for free as part of their inexpensive service....???

Or do you use a personal computer as a server to run the forum to save even the minimal server fee??

Meaning that the cost of an internet connection out of your home would be your only actuall cash expense  ???

....but wouldn't doing so mean that this forum could crash if your hard drive ever went out?

Am I way out of line on this thinking.....cause you hear some wild stories and scams out on the net..?

Kirk Allen:
I was pretty surprised what the "truth" of this whole subject really was.  I too have been told some pretty amazing stories of expenses but in reality its not the case.

Our server costs are $5.00 a month.  That will cover us for some time until the users on-line number gets real high.  Bandwidth is the biggest determining factor to server cost and I have been told if we had 2000 members on-line at once, we would need to have a bigger package than what we have now but even that only runs between $40-$70 a month, depending on hard drive and memory options.  Sure we could get a package as high as $175 a month but even that is a far cry less than what some people are bing told it costs. 

The largest hardrive on the market is 500 MB and it would take a site with far more data than anything seen in this industry to fill it. But lets say it happens, adding another hardrive to the server is a matter of a few dollars a month depending on how much more space you want.  In a nut shell, its very inexpensive to operate a forum.  Facts don't lie!  When I get a little more organized we will post a running tally of our expenses to include copies of the bills. 

The software to run this site is free and the hosting server installed it as part of the server provided service.  We upgraded the gallery to the Pro version which was $50.00.

It took us less than 5 hours to get what you see now.  I am sure over time we will have more of our own time invested but its definitely not labor intensive.  For me it was just a matter of understanding the code used to make changes and create stuff.  No where near as hard as I had been lead to believe.  I guess it was just a matter of getting out of my comfort zone.  

One thing I do find interesting is how easy it was to virtually stop the spammers with a couple simple package modifications from the software developers. Since installation we have not had a single spammer registration so virtually no time has to be spent monitoring registrations.  I know some sites claim it takes half a dozen people several hours a day to monitor that kind of stuff.  Those types of situation then turn into a self praising party where they talk about how great a select few are for all there hard work when in reality, a simple mod fixes those challenges, thus no time spent on unproductive matters.

Backs ups are done by the server nightly, for free with an on-site copy available as well as once a week an off site copy is stored at another location.  That way if there was a fire or storm etc. that damaged the local server, a back up could be installed which was not at that location.  We also can back up ourselves, which I have done a couple times just to learn the process.  When I checked with dozens of servers I did not find a single one that didn't do regular back ups. 

I use my personal PC to read the forum or to upload changes to the server.  The server is what actually runs the forum.  Considering its only $5 a month I cant imagine why anyone would do it any other way.   I have heard of people running a "server" from their office or home but the connection requirements would be a cable connection at a minimum and then additional expense to be linked to the WWW. Again, makes no sense to do it that way with server costs so low.

Our server could crash but at worst we loose a weeks worth of data if it was a fire or storm that caused destruction of the site.  Best case, its backed up to the last midnights backup. 

I have seen several forums that post the PayPal link for donations to help support the forum.  In fact, the software we use has a package modification that with a couple clicks of a button the code is loaded and presto, you have a PayPal donation link on the site. 

A gaming forum comes to mind where the guy claims the site is costing several hundred dollars a month to operate.  With the size of the site and the low bandwidth being used its clearly a ploy to get folks to hit that fancy PayPal button and help him out.  Unless people are willing to ask the right questions they get hoodwinked into thinking they are helping support something when if fact its just another way for the owner to make money. 

Don't get me wrong on the money making thing.  I love free enterprise.  I just think its wrong for people to put up a smoke screen to get people to pay them when the truth is the monthly cost is less than I spend in two days at Starbucks, which by the way we now have one 12 miles from us ;D

Buzz Sawyer:
Several situations have surprised me and kept me from posting much the last several years.....

 One nasty situation on the net is forums using tracking software called spy ware to track its members
As hard as this is to believe some moderators use your internet address to either sell information or in the case of

Small timers....to satisfy some sick need to see where member’s serf.....I have come across this on sites where you wouldn’t expect it.....


Also private inter forum email being read out of some perverse need to seek voyeuristic pleasure...reading comments between members of a forum.

So question is ......do I have to worry about that here....what are your feelings on these nasty issues???

Kirk Allen:
I can relate totally Buzz. 

I will do my best to address the things that you mention and probably add a few others for clarity.

As far as the spyware issue, please note in our registration agreement the following statement:
Also note that the software places a cookie, a text file containing bits of information (such as your username and password), in your browser's cache. This is ONLY used to keep you logged in/out. The software does not collect or send any other form of information to your computer nor will any Administrator ever install spyware of any kind that tracks your internet activity.   I give you my word this site will "never" stoop to monitoring others internet traffic with spyware.  I have had that done to me and I know others that have experienced it as well and its enough to cause a grown man to want to black a few eyes and bloody a nose.  >:( ;D ;D     

Another thing we will not do or tollerate, is our members "policing"  :police: and reporting where other people visit.  This is the USA.  Unlike some sites, I dont care where our members visit. I have said numerous times, the internet is a great source of information and I hope everyone can learn from what it has to offer and share that knowledge.   

I mention this because using spyware is only one form some sites use to control their kingdoms.  We have serveral routine visitors, which by the way are welcome, despite their gutless behavior, but their only purpose is to report back to another site on who is participating here.         

As far as the private inter forum emails, more commonly known as Private Messages, let me provide some information so that everyone can be aware of what the "truth" is on this matter. 

For starters, please check out this link and read the answer to the question about Private Messages. This comes from the software developers. 
http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=451

Did you catch the second part of the response? :
This however does not mean it is impossible to do so, but SMF will not provide any kind of support for allowing the viewing of personal messages of others.

So its clear, contrary to what we have been told by other forum administrators/owners, its possible for those so called private messages to be read.  With that in mind, right now Jay and Frank, the other two admins don't have server access yet so that leaves me.  My self confidence is high enough that I don't have to worry about anything anyone is writing.  I am very secure with where I am in life and I neither have the need or desire to learn how to find the file on the server that stores the information.  I wont do it, even if I knew how.
Why?  For starters I am not stupid ;D  More importantly, its way to easy to set a trap in a private message and before you know its exposed that the messages are being read.  Been there and set that trap before and it works real well ;D

I have been told private message are encrypted and cant be read if they wanted to.  My response to that, hogwash! As the designers of this software pointed out, it is possible and I know it was done to me elseware!  Even more interesting is that anyone is stupid enough to even claim the messages cant be read when the very software designers point out that they can. 

On another note of concern is for anyone using a server to host your site and/or email accounts.  I had a so called friend host our site some time ago and provide a couple email accounts.  Never thought much about it until one morning around 2 am I tried to download my email and I kept getting an error message I cant access the account because I am already logged in on another system.  Interesting?  I wasn't logged in anywhere else then it hit me.  My password was provided by the server host.  The next morning I was able to log in and what I found was a lot of new emails but all of them had been read, which was reflective of the fact they were no longer in bold print.  The only person who had access to my emails was the server.  So, I set a trap!  You know, the kind of trap that when a person reads it they cant help but make some comment about it to someone or even you.  Presto, the hand was in the cookie jar!  Needless to say, I changed servers straight way. 

Whats my point with the email story?  I would encourage everyone to make sure your email is with a reputable large firm to prevent this type of thing.  It happens all to often and in most cases its because of ignorance to how the system works that we are taken advantage of. 

This site was established for us to share our life experiences, challenges, and dreams.  A community if you will of common interests, concerns, and maybe even values and done so with out financial gain being a factor.  Knowing the love of money is the root of all evil, you wont find money come into the equation with the owners and/or membership of this site, EVER.  Costs are minimal and when split with three people its a joke as to how cheap it is.  This factor alone I believe will drive the future of this site in a positive direction.  

You can rest assured, another thing that will not take place here is the orginazation of a private finanace committy in a private board room that organizes a financial fund drive then makes claim the owner or admins know nothing about it when in fact their direct input was provided. I will never understand how an owner of a site encourages people to post for the purpose of raising money for them, then watch those very people he talked to in the private room claim he has no input or knows nothing about it when in fact they have not only discussed it with him but recieved encouragment from him for the committy to do all the posting since it wouldnt work as well if he were to do the asking.  Gutless and decietful is the word that comes to mind.  ::)

I am glad and appreciative of your questions Buzz as I hope everyone has a better understanding of what the truth is about the questions you raised.   You can put your concerns on these matters at rest because it ain't gonna happen here ;D

Now, for my feelings on this issues.  Anyone got a barf bag?  I cant tell you how many times I was lied to about these issues and knowing otherwise I set the traps.  It never failed.  It took longer with some sites than others but each and every time they just couldn't keep their mouth shut about something I mentioned in a message or email.  I don't even know if a barf bag is big enough for how these issues make me feel.  I guess it comes down to Personal Integrity.  What is integrity?  Its doing the right thing when no one is watching!

I hope this address's anyones concerns on this matter and I welcome any further discussion on it as I think its a topic of value and importance.  Knowledge is power and Knowledge of the Truth is power to the 10 degree  ;D

Kirk Allen:
One other thing that comes to mind Buzz on the server costs.  This is the only site hosted on our server.  I suspect if we started hosting other peoples web sites our server needs would go up as would the cost but we have no plans on doing that. 

If we did, the costs would be covered by fees charged to the peoples web sites we hosted and the financial burden would never be on the forum.  Thats just simple wise business.  ;)

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