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Author Topic: Circle mill blades  (Read 31623 times)

Offline chopperdr47

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Circle mill blades
« on: December 04, 2013, 01:48:44 PM »
I have just started doing some test cuts on a Frick "0" mill that I recently bought. The man that I bought it from has been some help but I have to get him on a good day. Thus the reason I now have his mill or he never would have sold it. I have done a lot of reading on mill set-up and I have spent a lot of time getting everything square, level and operating properly. I understand the lead of the blade and I have set that at 1/4" into the log across a 50" blade. The first test cut walked away from the log. I noticed that the blade that I installed (there are 2) is tensioned away from the cut. I feel sure that I already know the answer to this, but I defer to the experts. Shouldn't the blade cone into the the log and not away?
 
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 04:37:56 PM »
Going to leave this one to Harold!  Chime in there Harold as us bandmillers might screw this up! 

Welcome to the forum. 

DON'T take my word on this but the trailing edge of the blade should be offset AWAY from the log.  This prevents the blade from catching the log on the return.........I think!   ;D
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »

 Not to say you don't know what you are doing, but, I have several questions.

 How did you set the lead ?

 Who sharpened the blade and how ?

 Is the RPM's matching the speed of the saw ?

 What is the other blade ?

 Like I said, don't take offense to my questions.  :laugh:  I had a 52" blade on a Corley, 100 years ago or more, so, I have forgetten a thing or 10.

 Before I would change anything, try to answer my questions as accurately as possible.

 I do believe Kirk is correct. The "cup" in the blade should be toward the husk, not the log.  I will help you all I can, so, stick with us here.

 Where abouts is the mill located in the world ?  Doesn't really matter, we are just nosy around here.  ;D ;D :laugh: :laugh:

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 10:18:35 AM »
Honestly, I really don't know much about what I'm doing. I'm a retired Army helicopter guy getting started on my next life.

I had been looking at smaller mills when I came across this one. It had been neglected for a few years since its owner could not operate any longer. I have spent a lot of time setting it up, squaring and plumbing. The seller has been some help but I have to get him on a good day. There isn't anyone near me that I have found that can help with this type of mill.

I did find a guy in East Point GA at B.H. Payne & Co. that spent some time with me helping on the phone. I will be ordering new teeth Monday for one thing. He also referred me to a link on their web page http://www.sawdoc.com/troubleshooter.htm that helped tremendously.

For troubleshooting purposes, I removed and cleaned the surface rust from the shanks and teeth (a couple of hours in white vinegar worked wonders). I "dressed" the teeth keeping the same angles removing as little material as possible. I was the closest thing my unit had to a machinist at one time so I'm used to working with metals with close tolerances.

I will be resetting the lead on the blade to about 1/32". I was previously told that I needed 1/4" lead on the blade. I now see that is likely too much. To set the lead, I loaded a 12' x 28" white oak log for weight to settle the carriage on the track. I marked a saw tooth and measured from the inside of that tooth to a mark on the carriage. I moved the carriage to the rear of the blade rotating the drive pulley by hand (I found that I am not the fit young solider that I once was). I put the marked tooth at same spot as the new position of the carriage mark and measured the difference. I loosened the shaft bearing mounts and re-positioned the shaft to change the blade angle until there was 1/4" leading into the log. I put everything in the original position and checked the measurements. I repeated this until I had the consistent measurement that I was looking for and my arms were noodles.

According to the math and the tach on the 1960 190 HP Minneapolis Moline power plant, I have about 690 rpm at the blade. I have an optical tach on the way to confirm this. The blade turns nice and true with no visible wobble.

All I can tell you about the blade is that is currently installed is that its 48" with 48 teeth. The only number that I can find so far on the the shanks. They have "ATKINS" on one side and "1/32 LARGE" on the other and appear to be a Simonds style B.

The mill and I are near Birmingham, Al. I'll have more information later but the weather is not great here today and my wife's team, Auburn, is playing in the SEC tournament. My team, Alabama, is not. If you are not familiar with this part of the country, you may not understand how interesting a fall Saturday can be at our house. I will take my lumps from last weekend (Auburn 34, Alabama 28) and support Auburn today while wearing my Alabama attire. Roll Tide
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 12:47:55 PM »
  Which hand mill do you have, left or right ? That would be which side of the mill is the blade/husk located, left side or right side ?  Take a straight edge and hold it against the blade, as close to centered as possible, to see which way the blade is cupped. It should lean toward the husk and stand up straight when up to speed. 690 RPM is probably close to what you want with a 48" blade. My 52" was hammered to 600 and I had to raise the throttle set a little over time, and it was at 670 when I sold the mill.

  When you did this (I removed and cleaned the surface rust from the shanks and teeth), did you mix up all the shanks, and just reinstall them as you picked them up ?  Reason is, sometimes 1 or more sockets will be worn, and, a sightly larger shank will be installed. Changing that could mess up the blade geometry(wobble-waving).

 1/32 to 1/16 should be good for lead. Some people will push the guide pins against the blade to adjust lead. NEVER do this. The blade may rest against the pins when not turning, but, when powered up, it should NOT run against the pins. They are for holding the blade in line when sawing through a knot or tensioned-compressed stressed logs. Blade should have 1/16 or so clearance on both sides as it is running at speed. What type wood are the pins ? You can use dogwood or black jack oak as guide pins. They will wear like iron.

 The mill I had "Corley", had adjustable shaft bearing holders. Loosen the bolts that held the bearing block in the holder, and tighten one, loosen the other. IF you don't have that type, proceed with caution. You do NOT want to get the shaft out of line and heat up the bearings. How many bearings on the shaft, 2 or 3 ? IF 3, you need to move both end ones and allow the middle one to float, until you tighten both end ones up, then tighten the middle one.  

 Once you are ready to saw, throw a dab of lube on the blade. I used to have a 3 pound coffee can, half full of diesel fuel and a couple shots of drain oil. Had a scrub brush standing on end in it, and, every so often, just sling a bit on BOTH sides of the blade, while it is turning slowly. Too much will get thrown off and make a mess. Keeps the blade slick and helps cooling a little.

 I also would sling just a little on each log bunk before loading another log. You will be amazed at how easy it is to turn logs this way. I did the same with our band mill bunks.
 Don't worry about the diesel and drain oil messing up your lumber. Just a little bit goes a long way.

 You might try using a straight board on the carriage and butted up against the head blocks. That way, when you advance the head blocks (board), you can see if it is advancing evenly. Then set your lead to that, being sure the blade doesn't get too close to the bunks. Should have ½"-¾" clearance.

 I always used a 10" mill bastard flat file to sharpen the teeth. Slow steady STRAIGHT strokes, and only take enough to keep the tooth corners sharp. Not filed straight across will cause the blade to lead. Most guys then, start adjusting stuff. Go slow and pay attention. Lots of guys use the Jockey sharpener, some electric and some hand turned.

 Does the carriage have pillow block trucks, or axle holders, or, are they bushings ?  If you don't know, take a 2 X 4 and try to lever the carriage across the tracks, side to side. You want "0" movement sideways. That is where thick and thin lumber could come from.

 I'm somewhat familiar with B'ham, but, not interested in football, at all. Hockey is my sport, and, FIM Speedway dirt motorcycle racing. Needless to say, I don't participate in either of those, just enjoy watching.

 Photos of your mill would be nice, so we can maybe spot something. B H Payne is a good outfit. Dealt with Ric or Richard, ? maybe, the owner, when I bought new blades for my Peterson Swing Blade Mill and also a dozen gang saw blades from them.

 Hope this helps. If not, let us know and we will do more guessing.  ::) ;D ;D :laugh:

 Harold

 

 

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
I will get some pictures in the next couple of days (weather is lousy). But for now I believe the mill is right handed. When standing behind the blade looking toward the operators station, the husk is on the right. The inside of the cup is also toward the husk.

When I cleaned the teeth, I didn't realize I should put them back in the same spot. They are all in a bowl right now. Hopefully i will be able to tell if any are over sized when I put them back. I'll pay close attention.

I can just see daylight between the guide pins and the blade. The pins are oak right now but I do have some dogwood that I can use. I have a lot of shag bark hickory. That's about the hardest that I have besides ironwood and its kinda brittle.

I have three pillow block bearings on the shaft. Being an old Chinook guy, I'm pretty experienced in drive shaft alignment. That helicopter has 13 of them and if anyone of them failed, it would have a mid-air collision with itself. I checked the bearing temp after running it for a while and it seems to be pretty good.

I really like the idea of using a board for checking the lead. I'll do that when I make the next adjustment.

I'm not sure about the carriage trucks. I'll check the lateral play and send pictures.

Thanks for the help walking me through this, its what I really need.

John
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Offline joasis

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »
Helo pilots can fly or saw....it is all the same....stuff trying to fly apart.

I never had the chance to even sit in a Chinook, but I bet I can still remember the start up drill for a UH1H  ;) Anyway....tale a lot of notice as you spin the blade up from a dead start, and notice if it wobbles or even "taps" the blade guilds as is comes to speed....then it is a candidate (like that word?) for hammering.

Frank has forgotten more then I know about circle sawing, but.....on my mill, a Meadows since sold, the lead was less then 1/16 as checked with a dial indicator traversing the blade face checked a few places....and while mine was a adjustable, I never had cause to do so because unless the mandrel were removed, nothing would change short of a collision with a head block.
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Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 08:57:18 AM »
Moving this mill was not the easiest thing I have ever done. We used a back hoe, a roll back wrecker, 18' trailer, a tractor and another back hoe to push, pull, tug, lift and drag it to it's new home. We moved it in 4 main sections; the track in 2 sections, the husk frame then the beast of a motor.

I have been spending a lot of time practicing the use of Pythagoras' theorem (and taking Excedrin) trying to get everything square in relation to each other.

I was somewhat disappointed when that first cut trailed away from the log. Lot's of variables to get in line but I'm glad to have the help getting on the right track. Once I get it cutting true, I'm hoping that keeping it that way will be just a matter of good operation and maintenance practices
 
I'll get someone else to engage the clutch while I watch the blade spool up. From what I can see now, it seems to be pretty "slick".

I loved the Huey's. It was like flying a Harley. Wasn't start up pretty much... Key in and on... Battery switch on... Pull the trigger... Ya'll look out and hang on here we go!


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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 06:25:12 PM »

 We kept lifting our feet so the tree tops didn't catch our feet and jerk us out of the chopper.  :o :o ::) Thrilling ride sitting with feet on the skids, especially in a hair pin turn, before landing or jumping out to 6' below the skids.  ::)

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 07:57:25 AM »
I talked to the man that I bought the mill from. He told me that the blade needed 1750 rpm! This is not the same power plant that he used. My motor runs at 1750 wide open which gives the blade 610 rpm, I check that with a laser tach.

He is in his 80's and his information is not always reliable. Figuring out when it is can be difficult. I don't know what he was using to power it before. With the current set up of the pulleys, it would take 4900 rpm to get 1700 to the blade. My big propane motor ain't doin' that without comin' un-together.

I dont know if confusion is getting the better of him here. Could he be thinking the engine rpm should be 1700 or could a 50" blade need (or tolerate) that many rpm?

Getting a root canal for Christmas this morning so there wont be any serious work on the mill today. I do plan on posting some pictures of the whole rig later though.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 08:30:01 AM »

  DO NOT spin that blade at anything over 700 RPM's. The bigger the blade, the slower it turns. You are wanting TOOTH speed not blade speed, for cutting logs.

 1750 or so sounds like engine RPM's. Do you have a tach on your engine ? If so, get the mill where you can spin up the blade. Don't need the carriage to move or anything like that, just spin the blade. Start at idle and SLOWLY increase the RPM's. Give the blade a few seconds to settle in, as you keep increasing the speed. It SHOULD stand up straight with NO waving. At THAT speed find the engine RPM's. The blade should be in the 600's RPM range. Mine went from 640 up to 680 as the years went by. That was right at 1800 RPM's on a Jimmy Diesel 4/71.

 Anything much different than what I wrote, you need to do some investigating. The old timer that taught me, knew his stuff.

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
I was pretty sure that it was supposed to be engine rpm and not blade. This old guy once knew a tremendous amount about sawing. Unfortunately, he has lost a lot of it and some days are better than others.

The governor on the 190 hp Minneapolis Moline propane beast is set at 1750 by the tach. I verified the blade speed with a laser tach and I will do the same with the engine 

At 610 on the blade everything feels and looks good. It's straight and has a solid track at that speed. It just walks out of the log. I am working on the lead that you suggested and the other things today and let you know how it turns out.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 03:46:57 PM »

 You only want enough lead so the back side (farthest from you) does not scrub the log on the gig back.

 Let me say this again, not to be a smart ass, but, sharpening the teeth NOT 90° to the blade, will make the blade walk away from or to the log. I believe you stated you were pretty sure you had good experience to get the teeth sharpened correctly. I knew a guy that used to file just a tick off of 90 degrees to create his own lead ? Then, he would slap the side of the blade with a wet mop he had in a bucket near him, to keep it cool ?????????? ::)

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 05:27:28 PM »
I have pictures in my gallery "Frick Sawmill". Not sure how to get them here in a post yet.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2013, 09:25:04 AM »

 Couldn't find your gallery.

 HEY KIRK   NEED HELP  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2013, 02:48:12 PM »
I think I figured out how to post my pictures.
Here is the mill. Still a lot of work to go
This is a tooth on the 50" blade. I need to know what kind of shank and bit I need to use to replace these
This is the carriage truck on the husk side
The 48" blade teeth. There is too much damage from surface rust to get any numbers off the bits. The shank says 1/32 LARGE
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:17:52 PM by chopperdr47 »
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2013, 08:43:18 PM »

 The teeth on the 50" saw are standard normal teeth.

 The teeth on the 48" saw are standALL teeth. They will require a little more power to run. They are used by some for sawing frozen logs. I never did use them. I know Sawyers with many years of experience that won't use the standALL teeth. StandALL is a type, not a brand.

 The shanks are usually pretty well stamped. You might try emery cloth and see if you can make out what they are.

 Teeth are getting harder to find. One company bought out all other companies that made inserted teeth. Now, you get one choice.

 Menominee Saw in Michigan sells teeth. So does B.H.Payne, I believe. Talk to Bobby Richardson at Payne. They made me 3 new blades for my Peterson when I moved down here. They are in Alabama I think.  ::) ;D

 Next time, make the photos 640 X 480, so they will post bigger. My old eyes had trouble seeing the mill.  ;D :laugh:

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 12:23:14 PM »
I talked to Bobby (I think) at B.H. Payne. They are not very far form me just south of Atlanta. He was very helpful and referred me to a site that helped a lot http://www.sawdoc.com/troubleshooter.htm.

I also ran into a bandsaw miller that did some work for me a while back. It turns out that his father ran a circle mill until a few years ago. He was able to give me a LOT of good information about circle sawing and blade maintenance. He cuts mainly azobe for the railroad. Not too many mills can handle that stuff so he has as much work as he wants. He told me that once I get through a good set-up and the learning curve, he would keep me as busy as I want with his (non-azobe) walk-in excess business.

After explaining my situation, he told me that I had been given some good advice and I was on the right track. When I told him the condition of my teeth, he suggested swagging them. Based on what he told me and this page http://www.senecasaw.com/docs/1011.1forum.pdf. I got started. I'm pleased with the results so far. The side clearance was much less on the log side than the other. I'm being careful to keep the width at 9/32" and centered.

It appears that there has been several reasons that the saw was walking out. All of this is a great education before I actually start cutting. That first straight board is going to be very satisfying.

More lousy weather today, I'll see what I can do about enlarging the pictures.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 03:52:06 PM »
 Yeah, I said Richard something, and, Bobby RichardSON is his name.  ::) ::) ;D  I was close.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I know a LOT of guys swage their blades. I was told not to. Seems that excessive hammering will stretch the socket that holds the shanks.

 Being that I knew nothing about blades, I never swaged mine. Just kept it filed as best I could.  Never let the blade get dull before filing. It only takes a couple swipes to regain those corners of the teeth.

 I would bet you get some nice lumber right off the bat. I would also ask the Dad, if he is still around, or the Son, to be there at start up. NEVER hurts to have an experienced pair of eyes around.

 Good luck on the first day.  8) 8)

 Never heard of Azobe ??  Gotta look that up.

 Edit:
Another name is Jatoba. It's from Africa. Is he sawing in Africa or sawing imported logs ??  Yeah, I'm nosy.  :laugh: :laugh:

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 04:39:41 PM »
The railroad has it imported and shipped to him. His mill is right next to a track where he unloads it, cuts it, loads it back up and hauls of the money. That stuff needs no treating but they do it anyway. It's so hard, he has to check each cant with a metal detector for perforator teeth. He finds them regularly. He handed me a small drop and it surprised me as to how heavy it is, another reason most sawyers don't want to mess with it I guess.

His dad is no longer around but he drives right by my place on the way to his mill. I'm sure he won't mind stopping by when I need him.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2014, 05:51:14 PM »

 Sounds like he has a good deal going. We have some very dense wood down here. I use the Peterson Swing Blade cutting it. It's damn heavy. Think Ipe.It's the same thing as what I cut, or, used to cut. Now, I want to build a band head to mount on the Peterson. My sawing days are dwindling fast, so, I'm going to smaller, lighter logs.  ;D  Got LOTS of Balsa down here.  :laugh: :laugh:

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2014, 06:09:16 PM »
Finally... I have my mill cutting straight! This has been quite a learning experience. Im glad that it worked out this way though. I have learned a lot about setting up the mill, blades and maintenance. All of this will help troubleshoot any problems I may have later.

There were several things causing my problem not just one:

 1. There was way too much lead. I had 1/4" then reduced it to 1/32". I also went back to the 50" blade with the regular teeth instead of the 48" with the standall's
 2. The teeth were worn with an angle to the board side. Slowly, I filed all the teeth to 90 degrees then swaged them back to 9/32".
 3. The blade itself had a layer of rust that was eating up the guide pins. I removed the rust along the contact area of the pins with an abrasive pad on an angle grinder being careful not to heat the blade. Now there is a smooth area for them to do their "guiding"

I made some test cuts on a red water oak. So far everything looks really good. It cut well at a moderate feed rate. I didn't want to push it too much right now. It started getting dark so I haven't measured anything to see just how straight its cutting but eye-balling it looks pretty good.
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Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2014, 06:39:58 PM »

 Alright  8) 8) 8)

 One thing to remember, you have a machine that breaks logs down into planks or beams. It is NOT a Planer. That's why it's called rough sawn lumber.  ;D ;D

Glad you are finally making sawdust with a good running blade.  8) 8)

Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2014, 06:58:27 PM »
I recently got to tour a $20 million house near Sea Island GA. A very cool place. All of the hardwood floors were rough sawn as well as some of the ceilings. A lot of old cypress.

I have several people waiting for me to mill trees for them. They want it rough, without going crazy about it. There is a tooth or 2 that may be digging a little deep that I may look at, but for the most part, I'm satisfied with the surface.
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Offline chopperdr47

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Re: Circle mill blades
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2014, 07:48:44 PM »
That house is for sale by the way... incase you're interested. http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/little-hawkins-island
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