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Author Topic: Old iron  (Read 39431 times)

Offline bandmiller2

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Old iron
« on: February 01, 2016, 04:01:43 PM »
Of all the sawmill projects setting up an old handset circular mill you bought in a pile is the toughest. If you are looking for one the saw is the deal maker or breaker. Simonds, up in my neighborhood, has been buying up saw and bit manufactures for years then making their parts obsolete, they are about the only game in town. The saw I have on my mill now is an old Diston I bought for $25.00, I'am an experienced scrounger and located A modest supply of bits but when their gone its a pretty has been. First thing clean off the saw and be sure you can buy bits and shanks. Up here in the northeast most of the older mill are a hodgepodge of parts, mine included. Sometimes the sawyer prefers one headblock over another or just has them. Please feel free to add your comments to help anyone thinking about rescuing an old mill from the scrap heap. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 07:00:04 AM »
I would never try to discourage anyone from bringing an old circular mill back on line especially if you have the space for one. A bandmill can be a backyard venture, a circular mill is a mini industrial operation. Ideal situation is to find a complete unused mill under a roof all set up with power plant. If your so lucky take many pictures and measurements especially around the husk before you move it. Story will continue if your interested. Frank C.

Offline furu

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 07:47:30 AM »
Sounds as if you are involved in the relocation of an old mill.  Please tell its story.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing.
Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2016, 07:04:43 PM »
My own mill is a somewhat historic mill in town the family were farmers and owned most of the land in town. As with so many mills its owner passed and various relatives used the mill until the foundation finally settled and it was abandoned. It was a wood husk, wood carriage, Chase mill made in Orange ma. I dismantled and moved the mill by myself by pulling it on a low trailer with a come along several sections at a time. The diesel is a Ford industrial 6 cyl. Dagenham made in England. I set the mill up on utility pole sections sunk in concrete at the bottom, figuring after I kick off someone can just cut them flush with a chainsaw. I converted the carriage to steel with pillow block bearings. Instead of the wood husk I changed to a Lane #1 cast iron husk mixed and matched parts from several mills to what I wanted. It was quite a trip but I enjoyed it and enjoy running it more than my band mill. I would say if your a machinery type person go for it if you find an old mill. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2016, 05:54:46 AM »
This applies to all mills be they circular or band. Logs are heavy (NS) everything should be done to keep them at a handy working hight. At the very least a dead/live deck same level as the carriage so they can be rolled on easily. I like the top of the knees (where the log/cant rests on the carriage) at a level of about 30" from where I stand. This makes setting the head blocks and working with the cant easier as you don't have to bend over. I like to work on a springy wood deck less tiring and warmer in the winter, the ground is cold. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 06:36:12 AM »
The most dangerous setup, at least in my eyes, is where the sawyer stands at about the same level as the carriage knees and the saw arbor. Other than having to bend down to do everything a trip could put you in the saw. With the knees and arbor at waist hight  with a deck over the feed works you would have to try to get into the saw. I went one step further on my mill by putting a 2" pipe bar between me and the death wheel. My mill is a right hander the bar attaches to the left side of the husk up and a right angle stopping before the  the saw. If a fella slipped on snow , ice or big feet you couldn't fall into the saw. Its also handy to mount a throttle and clipboard. Frank C.

Offline backwoods sawyer

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 11:31:27 AM »
Now that is a good point, safety starts with the set-up design.
Once a mill is set up, it takes much more to correct an issue like husk height.

The first mill I worked around was set up with a good guard and clear walkway for the sawyer. He had moved the mill to correct some design issue with the first set-up. One feature he had in both set-ups was a throttle rope that ran the full length of the shed, there was just enough slack in the rope that a twist of the hand gave him a good feel for the throttle from anywhere along the walkway, seems like he ran it with 351 Windsor out of a ford LTD. 

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 07:28:41 PM »
Two things I wouldn't do without are a remote throttle and clutch lever in the sawyers box. If I'am doing something on the head blocks or loading a new log the diesel is at idle with the clutch disengaged. A carriage that creeps in neutral should not be tolerated. A flack screen keeps a lot of flying objects out of your face I use a section of fireplace screen suspended from the overhead so it can swing, but not hit the saw. A prudent sawyer will spend as little time in line with the saw as possible, and stand off to the side when making a cut. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 06:00:09 AM »
Come on you old sawyers help me inspire the young guys to get these old circular mills back from the dead. Its a lot of work but theirs nothing like watching a nice log file past you through the big saw and feel the mist in your face with the engine up agenst the governor. A sawyer has not lived unless he has at least sawed a couple of logs on an old handset mill. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2016, 05:34:36 AM »
The easiest circular mill to set up is a Belsaw, the reason is the arbor is bolted under the ways (the two beams the carriage runs on). This makes a neat compact mill that can be driven from the back with a tractor PTO. It also makes it easy for one man to operate as you don't have to walk around the engine and belts to remove boards and slabs. But all is not rosy the carriage runs over the top of the arbor so it must have tiny wheels so it won't reduce the cut depth of your saw. What it boils down to is a log on a creeper. Belsaw is a fine mill for a part time sawyer or farmer but not heavy enough for commercial use, some may argue this but if you use both types you will know. Belsaw are popular mostly from name recognition and you will likely pay as much for the Bellsaw as a heavy mill. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2016, 06:10:01 AM »
There are two flavors of mills right hand and left. If you stand in the sawyers box facing the saw and the log passes on your right side its a right hand mill, if it passes on your left left hand mill. Most mills that use a dedicated engine are rt. hand, left hand mill are usually driven with a tractor PTO. Its a direction of rotation thing.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 07:02:44 AM »
OK, you found an old circular mill, the old guy will sell it but how much.?? This is hard to answer as different areas are well different. Up here in the northeast the standard price for a passable useable handset mill was $5000.00 but that was before band mills, they have almost driven the old circulars out of existence. Small millers want bands or swings their easier to set up and portable. Commercial guys want the joystick mills. Don't buy a rusty pile"O"crap it will be nothing but problems. I'am going out on a limb A useable mill that was under cover with engine $1500.00, no power deduct $500.00. I lucked out $500.00 for an under cover easy rebuild with a diesel. Don't rush the deals are out their if you look. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 06:35:25 AM »
You bought the mill, whats next. If the mill is set up take many pictures especially around the husk. Measure distances between the saw and headblock knees and just how everything is set up. If you can move the mill in sections the larger the better. If the wood parts are in poor shape take them they will make handy patterns. Any mill worth owning is worth a roof over its head make plans for that when your setting it up. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 06:22:44 AM »
Two very important considerations are location and foundation. A circular mill is best setup on a south facing side hill. The side hill allows you to place logs above the mill and roll them on the carriage without lifting. South facing makes the mill much more comfy in the winter when most milling is done. A good firm gravel base will allow you to work through the dreded mud season. There should be enough room for trucks to turn around. Hopefully sawdust and slabs will move down hill out of the way. next foundations. Cut in with your advice guys, I'am no authority, just someone who has done it and is avoiding working out in the cold. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 07:18:11 PM »
A solid all weather foundation is probably the most important part of a mill. The mill should be up off the ground or a slab with enough space under it for sawdust conveyers or blowers and room to work. Room for cleanout is mandatory, everything ends up under the mill. Poured concrete that looks like jersey barriers is ideal. My mill is sitting on sections of utility pole sitting on concrete well below the frost line. Theirs not likely anyone in my family will take up milling when I'am gone so the poles can be cut just below ground level. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2016, 06:11:38 AM »
Close to the husk the post spacing is 4' beyond that 6'. The poles were set long then cut and notched with a chainsaw cross pieces bolted in the notches. My mill uses mine rail (small rail road track) set on 4X10" beams. All joints and wood was treated with the old black creasoat, I wisely squired away before the big ban. Various deck stains and preservers can be used but they are not as good. The more you cross brace and make things solid the better. Shims are almost mandatory as everything must be plumb and level. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2016, 06:48:15 AM »
Its not an easy job to align the carriage track. I have tried most ways string, stretched wire, laser but have always fallen back to sighting by eye. A circular mill must be "dead nuts" as to level and alignment. The great  sin is poor alignment causing the saw to heat. The saw is the mill diva and must be treated as such. The acid test for foundation is a heavy log and an accurate level on the carriage and slowly move it end to end should be no bubble movement. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2016, 07:02:09 PM »
Time moves on old babbit bearings on the arbor and carriage wheels are best left behind and antifriction bearings (ball or roller) substituted wherever possible. Arbors and carriage wheels should have zero endplay. I set up my mill so the end of the knees passes the saw with a 1/2"--5/8"clearance and the bottom of the knee just clears the saw collar. I cut down to 1" for the last board, many sawyers chicken out and cut the last piece 2", but your always a little nervous cutting the last one. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2016, 06:01:28 PM »
You will hear the term leed which is the amount that the saw is angled into the log or cant. If the saw was perfectly perpendicular to the log it would tend to take the path of least resistance and run out of the log. I can't tell you what the perfect leed will be for your mill it will be somewhere between 1/32" and 1/4". You literally have to cut and try, I would try 3/32" and go up or down from there. Too much leed and the saw will try to cut into the cant and pull it away from the last headblock. too little leed and the back of the saw will rub the cant heavily on gigback. The back of the saw should just tick the cant lightly on gigback. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2016, 07:37:04 PM »
Power, its hard to have too much on a circular mill. A serious mill should have at least 100 hp. preferably diesel. Belsaws and light mills can get away with less but you will have to slow your feed. A good governor is a must, as if your saw speed drops in the cut it can, and usually does, affect the cut and the can heat the saw plate. Torque is king with a mill engine electric, steam, and diesel in about that order with gasoline trailing behind. There are few big torquie gasoline engines today like the old Walkershaw or Hercules and if you can find one it will eat you out of house and home. If you can find A Murphy diesel it doesn't get much better. I have A Ford 6cyl. industrial diesel made by Dagenham in UK, its a little tired but I am too. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2016, 07:19:38 PM »
The saw bits especially the corners must be kept sharp and at the proper angle. Best to start with new bits and maintain the same angle. Its best to use a grinder like a Jockey to sharpen and keep the angles honest but if your a po-boy a file will turn the trick. For years I filed free hand with good results now I use a Dexter file guide it has a handle and hard rollers to keep the file perpendicular to the teeth and at the proper angle. I opted for a diamond grit file it puts a fine edge on the bits and can also do carbide. I don't swedge my bits, as a rule, just replace when they get filed down. Frank C.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 06:01:14 AM »
Hello, anyone out there ? you old sawyers chime in I must have said something that needs correction or the rest of the story. Frank C.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2016, 07:40:36 AM »

 Most of it sounds good to me. Only thing is, you never went to Arkansas and looked at redneck engineering, where sawmills were set up on chunks of log sections just stood up on the ground.

 Had a neighbor that had a 395 Corley that couldn't saw a stick accurate longer than 9' long.  I made a deal to realign his mill and saw him an order of 17' 2X's if I could use the mill to saw out my house pattern. The track was only out about 1" and a half from straight and several wedges were used to get it all level enough to not need constant adjusting.

 On my #2 production Corley with foot pedal head block receder, I had dug concrete footers and laid up 3 layers of blocks filled with cement and 2 bolts set for 2" X 8" creosoted boards for the track to set on. Built the pit for the husk same way allowing for the blower to sit right at the bottom to throw the sawdust out an 8" pipe away from the mill.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2016, 07:22:35 PM »
The best way to handle sawdust and slabs is to find a market and sell them. with the popularity of pellet stoves pellet makers will buy wood waste. Circular mill sawdust is actually small chunks unlike band saw dust that is fine. Myself I've always used sawdust conveyers to take the dust away from the mill. Blowers are probably handier but require considerable horse power to run. Old time sawyers hated sawdust and slabs and used any means to get them as far away from the mill as possible. Frank C.

Offline HaroldCR - AKA Fla.-Deadheader

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Re: Old iron
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2016, 08:42:54 PM »

 Back in the '70's, I did have a dust doodler as the locals call them. Chain with no paddles on the Corley mongrel mill I bought and had to completely rebuild. Second Corley had the blower.

 Sold the slabs to the local charcoal kiln and cut some up to sell to locals for stove wood. We burnd slabs as long as we had a mill to cut them to keep our homes warm. 98% of what we cut was hardwood, Red and White Oak, Post Oak, hackberry, all sorts of Hickory, elm, Ash, etc.