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Author Topic: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue  (Read 10095 times)

Offline furu

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Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« on: May 01, 2018, 04:48:32 PM »
There was not really a good place to put this so here it is in general discussion.

My forestry mulcher has a pretty high flow rate (45 gpm) to the mulching head.
The return line is obviously smaller and has a smaller quick disconnect.  The top line/fitting  that is seen capped in the picture to stop leakage.



I was working the other day and heard a loud racket and it was the the main pump, not real happy with the fact that it was not getting a flow on the return line.  Shut it down and found this.





Here is what it should look like.



I have never had the nipple of any quick disconnect let alone a Flat Face Stucchi fail in this manner.

Any one else ever seen this before?

Of course there are no distributors that stock these things locally anymore.  Have to go on-line to find them.
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Offline joasis

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 05:18:42 PM »
Wow. Must be some high working pressure.
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 07:35:23 PM »
When I'm king everything is going to be standardized, theirs no need for 25 different quick fittings. Chance are that hose got hooked on something. Frank C.

Offline furu

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2018, 01:40:58 AM »
Chance are that hose got hooked on something. Frank C.

That is certainly one option.  The other is that there has been a series of long term side loads that repetitively has caused a weakening of the metal.  There is a LOT of vibration while mulching and it is stressful on equipment in the long run.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2018, 09:21:46 AM »
That could have been caused by vibration harmonics traveling through the hoses and being exaggerated at the fittings.  Those fittings look nice but are almost some kind of pot metal inside, behind the shiny machined exterior.  Anybody grabbing a hose while these hi flow motors are running will feel it buzzing.  Then grab hold of the metal fittings and it's magnified.  Strange but true.  Maybe this isn't on all machines that have hyd. motors, but certainly many of them have this phenomenon.   

Those hi frequency harmonics and buzzing vibrations play hell with anything steel related.  I've had to fix several things similar to this from this very problem.  Fittings, flares, flare nuts, etc.

I don't know if this is what happened but I've seen it before and heard of it as well is all I'm saying!
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline furu

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2018, 11:26:59 AM »
There are certainly a lot of harmonics and vibration occurring for hours on end while the mulcher is running. 
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Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 05:01:32 PM »
been there seen and fixed that :( heat, pressure and vibrations will raise hell on anything. all my flat face couplers are interchangable (by me) that way i can rob anther one and keep going.
when stuff breaks it's amazing how clear my speaking french truly can be ;D
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Offline RiverForest

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 06:58:41 PM »
I've got FF connectors on my Bobcats and never have had that sort of problem.  They sure are easier to deal with (and cleaner by their smooth design) than the dang near friction fit stuff on my New Holland tractor, and others that are almost as quirky.  Hope it's isolated.

The harmonics et al stuff is weird, but it reminds me of the story I heard as a kid that large parties of soldiers marching on (some?) bridges were told to break step to avoid damage caused by something similar.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »
Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing.  They would put a sign up sometimes on bridges saying "marching people must break step" or something similar.

Harmonics are a strange critter alright.  Apparently, everything in the world has its own vibration whether it's felt or heard or not.  If you can match that "frequency" and change it just a little it'll destroy whatever it is eventually.  Like say, a building.  It's got a frequency.  Match it closely (or maybe match it?) and eventually it'll crumble and fall.

Years ago on Long Island somewhere they were having an earthquake.  It was a strange kind of quake and they were always wary of an eccentric genius that was there performing experiments with electricity all the time.  They rushed to his lab and burst in just in time to see NOKOLA TESLA himself smashing a small device with a hammer.  He had created a harmonic/vibration type machine and through it's constant thrumming (I suppose) it had triggered this weird earthquake.  When it started shaking he couldn't turn the thing off and so had to destroy it.  I think it was to understand better how to send signals and power through the earth and simply got out of hand.  I can't for the life of me understand how a tiny device could trigger the earth to start shaking but it's a verifiable event.  This story has always made me very curious and kept me in awe toward Tesla.  The very fact that our own dear government raided and stole all his papers and documents and data after he died says a lot to me.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline furu

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 03:32:00 PM »
Harmonics can be very interesting.  The Tacoma Galloping Gertie bridge that failed in 1940 was not an impact harmonic problem but a concept called flutter which is loosely harmonic related.  Still the video is interesting even if the music is a bit old and out of date (i.e. 1940 newsreel footage)
Two different links are below. Similar but one British one US.

Click the link inside Wikipedia on the first one
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AThe_collapse_of_the_Tacoma_Bridge.ogv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggxeuFDaDU
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Offline Ox

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2018, 09:55:28 AM »
I remember watching that on an Engineering Disasters show.  Ever after that disaster they had to incorporate aerodynamics into the bridge designs to counter this phenomenon.  Who would've thought? 

Good thing it wasn't in an undeveloped nation, because they would have thought it was evil spirits or something and simply never build another bridge in that location again!  lol
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline woody

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 05:24:52 AM »
Do you run it with the top line in your pic capped?
I believe that's the "case drain" and it should be used for the good health of your mulcher motor.
I wish I knew more about hydraulics and I would take this post with a grain of salt, but I take it as the top 3 lines take care of your motor and the bottom 2 are for another minor circuit like a cylinder.
I have a big skid steer with a high flow circuit (45 something gpm) but no high flow attachments and have never used it. Never seen a coupler fail like that myself. My pita issue with these FF couplers (on simple cylinder circuit's) is relieving pressure to hook up. A few degree's of temp change like the sun shining on it will make it impossible to to connect by hand.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 08:57:55 AM »
On the farm when we couldn't get hoses hooked up because of pressure we would just bang it down on the drawbar or implement tongue or something and oil would spray out a little at a time until it's relieved and then hook up no probs.  Also making sure hydraulics were in "float" position can make a difference.

On that flat face connector it would be trickier, but maybe figure out a way to hold a golf ball or something onto the end of it to push in as you bang on it.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline furu

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 11:18:04 AM »
Do you run it with the top line in your pic capped?
I believe that's the "case drain" and it should be used for the good health of your mulcher motor.
I wish I knew more about hydraulics and I would take this post with a grain of salt, but I take it as the top 3 lines take care of your motor and the bottom 2 are for another minor circuit like a cylinder.
I have a big skid steer with a high flow circuit (45 something gpm) but no high flow attachments and have never used it. Never seen a coupler fail like that myself. My pita issue with these FF couplers (on simple cylinder circuit's) is relieving pressure to hook up. A few degree's of temp change like the sun shining on it will make it impossible to to connect by hand.

I do not run it with the top line capped.

No way would I run the mulcher with the case drain line capped that way.  I put the cap on the line to stop the hydraulic fluid from leaking/dripping out while I was getting a replacement QD. (there were none available in my local area that met the size/spec needed so I had to order them in.)  I had no spares for any of the QD's as I did not expected them to break let alone in this manner.  I now have spares in each size for backup as being out of commission for that reason is not conducive to getting the job finished in a timely manner.

According to the mulcher manufacturer running even a few seconds without the case drain working (clogged, disconnected etc) will blow the shaft seal and dump fluid at the full 45 gpm.  I only lost about 2 gals so I was lucky I guess.
I had never had a coupler fail that way before thus I was asking as, I too, am not a hydraulic expert, however I am learning much faster than I would like to about hydraulic issues. :(
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Integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one is looking.
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one else will ever even know.

Offline woody

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 04:50:47 PM »
I made a tool to fit the f/m end, it screws in the center to relieve the pressure. It's a love/hate thing for me with the f/f couplers, good & tight and don't leak (over "ag" couplers) but not as forgiving to use. I've got 3 pairs (ag type) on the back of my tractor, it's never going to rust back there. ;D

edit; Wow, I got a pic to work.Had to make it under 40kb or 95 pixels sp in.
TK B-20 and learning.

Offline terracefarmer

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2019, 04:38:49 AM »
Furu, those are standard flat face disconnects, we see that everyday and the reason we switched to the screw together disconnects.     No flat face quick disconnect can take vibration, a mulching head is nothing compared to a hydraulic breaker,for vibration, in the past we've had to replace both halves of the flat face fittings in only a few hours of operating due to vibration.   We'd buy those flat face disconnects by the dozens at a time in order to keep enough on hand at any one time do a simple jack hammer job.     

Once we went to the screw together quick disconnects, I've yet to replace a single one in all the hundreds of hours we've run them, the screw together units also can be undone and hooked up under full pressure, eliminating the need for cracking the fittings or having a bleed off line to get them either hooked up or disconnected.   

We've also in the past, used screw together wing nut style fittings, similar to those used on semi wet kits for the breaker and things that vibrate, those have finer threads and still tend to strip the threads on things that vibrate, but will outlast those flat face fittings 5-10 to one.   

On the skid steers that require a lot of ends, we've converted them all back to standard pioneer adapters and ends again, identical to what was used on tractors 50 years ago, both the tips and the female adapters are cheap compared to flat face fittings and seem to last years compared to months for flat face fittings.   

Right off hand I can't recall of the name of the good fittings, my hydraulic hose supplier just gets them for me when I need a set, not cheap but well worth it, Stucci or something like that they are called, about 200 a set if I recall, do some googling on the internet and I'm sure you can find them.         

Offline joasis

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2019, 12:24:19 PM »
And the Bobcat f;at face connectors are high.

But, we haven't had any issues with them and I run a hydraulic breaker. Maybe it is a quality issue?
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If anyone has any issues, I can be reached at the number above, anytime.

Offline terracefarmer

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Re: Hydraulic Flat face connector issue
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2019, 10:43:57 PM »
We've had issues with New Holland, bobcat, deere, cat, kubota, gehl and case over the years, I don't think its a quality issue as much as a design issue, but that's just personal opinion.     

The male coupler in the photo had front portion of the tip worn, depending on brand, we usually see the ball wear dimples farther back in the seat area more than the front face of the tip, but we've seen it all.