Say you have to cut through 500 ft of trees to make a road.....

[Steve G.]

Hello fellow tree fellers (literally),

Say you had to cut through 500 ft feet of trees to make a road - what equipment would you use?
I know obviously I'm gonna need a chainsaw - but what would you do with the stumps?
Grind um'   Pull um' out with a dozer
What kind of equipment will I need?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

[joasis]

You use one of these:

[Steve G.]

And just chain it to the tree and pull???

btw, is there a way to edit post here?

You use the "modify" button.

[joasis]

That machine is a 150 International Harvester Drott Crawler....a real antique, 1959 model. I just bough 20 acres of land, thickly wooded, and with the crawler, it is a matter of pushing the tree over and then sinking the shovel in under the root ball and pushing it out, roots and all. If you look close, you can see it is a clam shell bucket, so it can grip a stump, or a log and pull or pick it up. I use this machine for demolition work in our construction business, but it serves duty at the farm. Cost was $5000...a real bargain.

If you plan on sawing the trees for lumber, you do not want to push them over...it strains the logs and breaks the fibers....hard to believe, but true...that isn't to say you can't get good logs out of trees that were pushed, but it is best to cut them. If the trees are large, look forward to a lot of work, and you won't be using a chain to pull them out.....rent an excavator or dozer for a weekend...and plan on it being a long weekend. And always, clear as you cut...don't just shove brush piles up.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Welcome a board, Steve G.  I would use a trackhoe.  First I would dig around the root ball and gently pull up the root system and lay the tree down.  That way I would not be damaging the fiber structure in the main stem of the tree and perhaps some species would produce some burl in the root system that could make for a great turning project or just market for someone else.

Grinding the stump would make for some pretty loose material in the roadway.

[Steve G.]

Welcome a board, Steve G.  I would use a trackhoe.  First I would dig around the root ball and gently pull up the root system and lay the tree down.  That way I would not be damaging the fiber structure in the main stem of the tree and perhaps some species would produce some burl in the root system that could make for a great turning project or just market for someone else.

Grinding the stump would make for some pretty loose material in the roadway.

My dad was planing on renting a backhoe for the week and doing exactly as you said - after all he did grow up in the tree business from when he was a boy.
So will a backhoe work?
What's a trackhoe?

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Yes, a backhoe will work, perhaps not quite as well as a good sized trackhoe. 

A track howe is basically the same, only on tracks like a dozer.  A trackhoe comes in all sorts of sizes, like a dozer.

[Kirk Allen]

ALWAYS keep the tree on the boom side of the tree.  NEVER let you cab get exposed to the tree during felling.  I have seen two different situations locally where the operators were killed by trees crushing the cabs.  Trackhoe is the way to go as a Back Hoe offers very little protection for felling.

I do just as Frank suggested.  Standing tree, dig around the root ball, lay it over, then I cut the logs out of it

[Kirk Allen]

Hey Steve, neat avatar!

[Steve G.]

Hey Steve, neat avatar!

Mucho Gracis!

[Steve G.]

We were planing on cutting the trees down and then getting the stumps out with a backoe, so I guess were on the right track there.

Now, have any of you made a road before?
Is it ok to leave it just dirt?
Should we rent a roller and press it down?
Should we put gravel or rocks down on it or is it not required?
We're definately not paving it but we don't know exactly what we should do. Any suggestions?

Steve

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

First qwuestion is contingent on if the road is summer seasonal or year round.  Any such road should be crowned so that that the water runs easily tothe sides.  Secondly, compaction can/is determined by the type of material you have for soil.  I would strongly suggest that you put in an culverts as you are building the road, where necessary.  If you have any soft spots or spungy areas I would strongly suggest a road fabric to help maintain the rock when and if you use rock.  Road fabrics allow water to move through them and help keep the rocked area from becoming a thing of the past.  In other words, disapear into the soil. 

If you decide for put rock down, I would always use a quary rock out here that is called 3'minus.  The smaller rock tightens in with the larger and acts as a great base.  If you have some real spongly areas you might consider larger and then working down to putting a coating of 1 1/2 on the top of the 3' minus.  Some folks like to have a coating of 3/4" minus for a finished coat.  For me, I have such heavy trucks going in and out all the timem only use an 1" 1/2 as the top coat.

Again all this is determined by the use of the road.

[Steve G.]

What is quary rock?
The use of the road will be occasional.

[Kirk Allen]

It is much easer to get the stumps out of you dig up the roots around the tree and let the leverage of the tree roll the stump out of the ground.

If you cut the tree first, then you loose the leverage and it will take a lot more work to get the stumps out. 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Quasrry rock is rock that has to be mined first with the hillside being blasted and then the rock is sized, with a crusher, depending upon demand.

[Kirk Allen]

Its the good stuff  

[Steve G.]

...and what about trenches? Do I have to dig trenches on each side of the road?

[Kirk Allen]

That is going to depend on the terrain your building the road on. If you have natural runoff then as long as the road is high in the middle and slopes down to the sides your road will drain. The key is where that drainage goes to once its off the road.  Culverts from one side to the other may be necessary with trenches (ditches in Illinois )but again, it depends on the lay of the land. 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

If you put in culverts and use the pvc type, make sure you leave at least 18 to 20 inches of surface material on the top to prevent culvert crushing.  When yo deal with the downhill side of the culvert, make sure you place large enoughrock to help cut down on erosions.  I always try and place about 4 or 5 feet of a half culvert as a catch to help prevent such an event and washing out under the culvert itself. 
wilth a half culvert you can also clean out the area much easier.




Oh, and another thing, I spoke about putting down fabric.  Well I have been using lumber wrap aas a base for some roads and it has worked out great.  It is also much less expensive.

[Steve G.]

Where could I get lumber wrap? or fabric? I know I can get the 3' by 100' at HD but I asume it's gonna have to be 8' wide??? right?

btw, thanks for all the help you've been giving me - it's great!

Steve

[Kirk Allen]

Its what a forum is all about!  People helping people!

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

I have abouit 12,000 lbs. of the material here on the Left Coats.  Do you want a roll sent to you?  Tell me how many feet you need and we can send it, general freight, UPS, whatever. you wish.  You would have to pay the freight as well, please.

[Steve G.]

Well we just got back from visiting our property up in port jervis!

[Steve G.]

Well we took a look at the road we would have to cut and it looks like there are only a few trees and some brush to go through. The land is on a slight slant downward wich is really nice.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

So, Steve, it sounds as though youmight just have a chance for good drainage off to the sides of the road.

[Steve G.]

yup, the first step we have to do is cut a road.... even if it's just dirt, it needs to be a place to get to our land...then we start building our house and see if we need to dig ditches on the side's of the road.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Please, put in the ditches when you first grade in the road.  You may wish you had later and have it cost you more dollars in the end.

[Steve G.]

we'll see what happens once we get that backoe chugin' in the summer....

[adk patroller]

Where could I get lumber wrap? or fabric? I know I can get the 3' by 100' at HD but I asume it's gonna have to be 8' wide??? right?

btw, thanks for all the help you've been giving me - it's great!

Steve

Steve,
Check with your local lumber yards and contractors for the lumber wrap discarded from skids of dimensional lumber.

Bob

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Welcome a board, Adk.  Good to have with the new forum.


Steve, you might want to see if you can find someone with a smaller type road grader to help with the crowning of the road. 

[Steve G.]

How do you mean "the crowning of the road"?

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Crowning means haveing the road slope to the sides from the middle point.  Another way might be to say, rounded.  Not so much, you lose your tale pipe or anything, but well enough to get the water to the sides of the road and into a ditch.

[Steve G.]

gracias!

[joasis]

So what is your family going to do with this property Steve?

[Steve G.]

well as I stated above, we intend to build a log cabin on it.... and maybe a shop - my dream shop........(dreaming)

[Kirk Allen]

Hey Steve, make sure you take lots of pics when your start your project.  We would love to see the progress. 

[Steve G.]

I will definately be taking pics, maybe even video! We are already in the planning stages and we have already started to build a scale model of the house! We have also started collecting some of the tools that we will need too - btw, anybody know the best place to get a peavey?

[Kirk Allen]

Contact Frank Pender!  He is a Log Rite dealer and you will NEVER find a better peavey than the one Log Rite Tools offers. 

[Kirk Allen]

http://www.logrite.com/

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Thank you Kirk.  I can have one delivered directly, Steve G.  Just let me know.

[Steve G.]

Well my dad and I are doing alot of shopping like the loghomebuildersassociation told us to, they said collect your equipment over 2 years and don't pay retail for anything - get it at yard sales and store sales. So I'm gonna talk to him about where to get the peaveys and ask him what he thinks of these.

Steve

[Kirk Allen]

Steve, what ever you do, dont cut yourself short on your log handling tools.  The one time a wooden handle peavy breaks on you is going to be the time it takes out your jaw or worse yet, lets the log roll over you or part of you causing serious injury. 

I understand the value in being a good stuard of your money but spending a little extra for a peavy that will NEVER break and has a lifetime warranty is the best thing you can do.  I promise you will not be disapointed. 

[joasis]

Start watching eBay, and you will find that old or used cant hooks and peaveys sell for nearly as much as new....I have a wooden handled cant hook...somewhere...I also have 3 of the Logrite beauties....and they are well worth the few bucks they cost, relatively speaking due to safety. The next one I buy will be the longest handle version they have.....makes life a little easier and safer, since handling logs weighing thousands of pounds can be extremely dangerous.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Jay, when do you want me to have it delivered, directly to your front door? We have a 72" unit called the "mega Hook. It does not have a sharp point  as a peavy, but a canthook end.  I have sold a few of them to folks.  The ones most wanting a "mega hook have been the women for better leverage.

[Kirk Allen]

Carefule there frank.  I got one of the first prototype mega hooks to test and was proudly one of the first to buy one, if not the first and there aint no girly men around here

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Gggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeee, I was not in-firrrrrring anything like that , Kirk.

[joasis]

I don't know when Frank, But I will buy it from you.....always about time. never enough time.

[Kirk Allen]

Just making sure there Frank 

[Steve G.]

Okay guys, haven't been around lately... cuz' i've been workin' a heap! We went up to clear our rode and land.... we got a stihl MS 280 18" & a little echo saw for light stuff. We worked about 4-5 days by now clearing and chipping and felling big trees. I have a question though, say I want to mill some pine or oak we cut down (16-18" in diameter and pretty straight); what would I have to do (ie curing, drying, etc...)?

[joasis]

Get someone with a portable mill and get after it...they get milled green, then stack and let air dry.

[Steve G.]

Ok, so the we should try and mill em' as soon as possible? does it matter if we wait a year to mill em? Or is it just so we can get them stacked and dried as soon as possible? How long would we have to dry them for?

thanks a bunch jo!

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

A couiple of things.  One, coat the ends with a log sealer to prevent checking and degrading of your lumber.  Cut the logs with a length of about 8 to 10 inches of trim; example: 8' 10".  Use at least 1" x 1" stickesrs every 16" to 18" and not placing the next layer of stickers directly over the last; offset them on every layer of lumber.  Make sure to keep the lumber out of direct sunlight to prevent additional checking of the edges or the top layer of lumber.  I usually place a layer of tin or plywood on the top layer with stickers between for air flow.  You general climate may tell better the duration for drying.  General rule of thumb around here is, a year to the inch of thicknes.


As to the timeline of sawing, I like to get them sawed as soon as possible, unless I am specifically wanting spalted lumber, then let the logs set for a year or three.

[Steve G.]

I made sure we cut them about 12'4" each so that we didn't get caught with just under 12 feet of lumbar. Will the wood become twisted or anything from drying?

Also, just in case we don't end up getting our own mill if I was to have someone come in a and mill them for us what would a good hourly wage be?

Thanks

[Steve G.]

Use at least 1" x 1" stickesrs every 16" to 18" and not placing the next layer of stickers directly over the last; offset them on every layer of lumber. 

http://www.ronhazelton.com/howto/home_grown_lumber.htm

Ron placed the bottom boards on a level surface created with 4 by 4s. He then placed small pieces of wood called stickers between each of the planks to create a space that would allow air to circulate and cause the boards to dry evenly. The stickers were stacked directly on top of each other to prevent the boards from bowing.

This guy says to place the stickers directly on top of each other so the boards don't bow... who's right???

[Kirk Allen]

The idea of offsetting each row is a sound practice. If each sticker is directly above the previous then you have a section of the board that does not get air on either side.  By offsetting them each time, back and forth, each board can theoretically dry better. 

[Steve G.]

The idea of offsetting each row is a sound practice. If each sticker is directly above the previous then you have a section of the board that does not get air on either side.  By offsetting them each time, back and forth, each board can theoretically dry better. 

So your saying they won't bow?

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Unless you put some very heavy weight on the stack you get some bowing.  I have had very little bowing in an up and down direction.  Where I might get more bowing than anything is sidways or edgewise directions.  Unless you put the wood in a vice like condition and continually keep it tight as it shrinks, you might well have some movement.

[Steve G.]

Thanks, Now say I want to mill some oak for making furniture - like the stuff you get @ homedepot - say 3/4" 1x3's. Would I mill the wood an inch so that I could plane it smooth later or mill it exactly 3/4" And also if I want oak 2x4's would I give it an extra half inch?

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Yes, on sawing larger than what you want for finished wood for project.   I am not familiar enough with your Eastern Red Oak to know how much it will shrink and such.

[Kirk Allen]

Cut it 1 1/8th and you will be pleased with the end result, assuming your going to have boards 6" or wider.  for 3" wide boards they should plane up fine if you cut them 1" but realize the best boards from a log are going to be much wider than 3". 

I would cut them 1 1/8th, wide as possible, sticker them, dry them and when you are ready to make stuff rip them from the wide stock.  You will be much happier with the end result this way, trust me 

[Steve G.]

Thanks alot guys, i'm learning alot! Now can someone explain to me what quarter sawn and all those other terms mean?

[Kirk Allen]

q-sawn is when the grain is vertical when you look at the end grain. 
Your oaks have the best appearance when Q-sawn. 
Technically its 60-90 degrees but the best looking is vertical grain. 
30-60 is considered rift sawn and anything below 30 is flat sawn. 

[Steve G.]

I fail to understand in what context you are using the degrees???

[Kirk Allen]

No problem.  I found this pic online that probably is one of the better examples I have seen........................and it saves me from drawing it, which I am not real good at 

[Steve G.]

He he, I had just read that article yesterday right after I posted. What a small cyber world I was gonna post it and ask ya'll if it was right or not.... but I guess it is since you posted it

Thanks

[Stevem]

Wait a minuet!

Aren't the titles on the pictures reversed for rift saw and quarter saw?

It's my understanding that "quarter sawn" oak has a distinctive ray pattern that doesn't show up in rift sawn.  And in my experience I lose the ray pattern after about 6-8 degrees off vertical so it becomes rift. 

And it is my understanding that Vertical Grain is any wood that looks vertical grain or at least it is in the soft woods which can be as much as 60 degrees off of vertical when you have a high ring count as long as the growth rings show on the wide face.  Kind of like an edge view of plywood.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Stevem

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

It looks like it to me, as well, but I wear bifocals.

[Kirk Allen]

Steve you are correct regarding the middle example. Each one of the boards in that picture would be quarter sawn, or vertical grain.

SteveG, the small pie shapes between the boards on the middle pic would be closer to rift sawn. 

The third pic is quartering a log but doesnt provide the maximum vertical grain the way the have hit.

Good catch SteveM! 

[Steve G.]

Got back from another 2 days of logging and stacking em' with the tractor (kubota L3750) - we got a cant hook from baileys... I tried to convince my dad about the logrite hooks - he said he wanted the ones he's used to working with.

We have some big logs up there - about 3 18" x 40ft pines and alot of other oaks about that size but not that long. How much do logs that size go for?

Steve

[adk patroller]

It depends on what you have in the area for log buyers and/or mills.  The very best pine in NY generally sells for $350/MBF delivered to the mill.

I have a price list for pine logs in a log yard 9 miles from our forest which includes Fresh Pine at $250/MBF Stained Pine @ $200/mbf.  Spruce & Fir a $285/mbf.

Red Oak in my area is paying around $300-$400/mbf with the best saw logs @ $475/mbf

[Steve G.]

Please translate "mbf" ---- I know it has something to do with "board feet" what does the "m" stand for?

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

m stands for thousand b for board and f for feet  mbf

[Steve G.]

And what is a board foot determined by? A 2x4? A 1x3? A 1x6? A log

Thanks again frank

[ESCANABAJOSH]

http://www.schererbros.com/homeowners/how_to/calculate_board_feet.php

found this on the net

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Thanks Josh, that is exactly how I do the figuring.


A board foot is 1" THICK  and 12" SQUARE

[adk patroller]

Steve,

Those prices were all in International 1/4" log rule.  Come on up to Burlington VT next weekend, for the Northeastern Forest Products Equipment Expo, and pick yourself up log scale rule/stick. You then can get a decent idea as to what you have for logs by measuring the small end inside the bark. I plan to attend one of the days.  Lots of mills, saws, splitters, grinders....ARR ARR ARRRRR!

 http://nefpexpo.net/(v)geninfo.htm

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Or, I could have Kevin from Logrite send one to you out Aluminium.  Let me know if you want to order one.

[Steve G.]

Why can't I measure the small side inside the bark with a tape measure?

[Kirk Allen]

You can measure it with a tape measure but it wont have the log scale conversion numbers on it that coorisponds with the diameter measurement. 

A log rule will have the BF totals on it so you can tell what the totals are by just measuring the diameter and referencing that number the BF numbers below it.  A folding log rule is about $13 but if you go that route buy a bunch of them.  I cant tell you how many I have lost.

I purchased the Log Rite log rule and still have it to this day and its more proffessional looking for the customers.

[ESCANABAJOSH]

hey steve i was wondering how you'r projects are going?

did ya get the road in? how's the cabin comming?

i just wonder cause i hope to be doing all that stuff my self in a few years.....good luck with everything eh.

[Steve G.]

Josh, it's going great, we cut our whole road and now we have to get a few 30ton loads of gravel down here to make it drivable for a car - Only our 4x4 trucks can get through it.
We have all the tree's cut though... we have a stihl 280 w/18", echo CS330 w/ 12" and we just a bought a stihl 440 magnum off of ebay used since we'll need to be cutting some really big tree's down soon.

We have access to a timber harvester 30ht25 sawmill where we'll cut all our wood for the house.
We haven't actually started the house yet... we are hoping to get the foundation done this summer (piers).
We're still getting the site plan from the engineer who needs the topographical survey from our surveyor so we can start doing stuff.