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Author Topic: Carburetor icing  (Read 11846 times)

Offline Stevem

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Carburetor icing
« on: November 11, 2018, 10:55:13 PM »
On my TimberKing with the onset of colder days I get ice build up on the carburetor.  It's a 27hp Kohler V twin.  On some of the smaller Kohler they have a heater kit for the carb but not mine.
Does anybody else have that problem or know of a fix?
Stevem
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Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 06:08:57 AM »
I had an old Oliver OC-6 crawler that carb iced bad, just learned to live with it. For your problem mate I would just copy what Kohler did for their smaller engines. Usually its just certain weather conditions that cause it. Can you route the exhaust near the carb.? Frank C.

Offline mountainlake

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 07:14:53 AM »

 I think getting some warm air into the intake would work the best, either off the muffler or from the air from the cooling fins.   If it still runs good I wouldn't do anything.  Steve

Offline mike p

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 07:31:54 AM »
Years ago in an ice storm we had no power for 14 days at around 3 am the generator shutoff carb was froze had to start PU and aim exhaust at it. So generator ran to run furnace and PU ran to de ice most nights probably 3-4 hours. It was a long 14 days
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Offline joasis

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 08:35:30 AM »
On my TimberKing with the onset of colder days I get ice build up on the carburetor.  It's a 27hp Kohler V twin.  On some of the smaller Kohler they have a heater kit for the carb but not mine.
Does anybody else have that problem or know of a fix?

Have to expand a couple of things here so there is a complete understanding of what is going on when a carburetor "ices" up.

The venturi causes air to 'speed up" and pressure to drop as it passes through and this is what draws fuel from the metered orifice in the carburetor throat. When the engine stops, the air flow stops and fuel is not drawn out of the metered orifice. If a float "sticks", this is where fuel drips out, or floods an engine. If a float level is set too low, then the pressure differential will not draw fuel through the metered jet and will not run, or will only run with the choke out, caused the engine to draw hard on the intake, but not achieve a proper fuel/air mixture of 18 - 1 for optimum fuel burn. excess fuel causes an actual loss of power, and smoke indicates you are not getting a good burn in the combustion chamber.

Quick lesson over.

When humidity is high, meaning the air is carrying a lot of moisture, or close to saturation (like rain), then one other aspect comes into play: When the speed of air increases and the pressure decreases in the venturi of the carburetor, the temperature will drop.....now, if it is 80 degrees outside and 50% humidity, no big deal...a little water vapor that condenses in the fuel air mix actually increases power and cools the cylinder head temps....meaning you have a touch more efficiency in the power range.....some of you may know that older tractors, and I mean 30s and older, like the old D John Deere, had an actual meter valve that allowed the operator to open and add water to stop detonation and gain power when advancing timing lead.

Now to the other side of the coin: When conditions are right, and I mean it can happen at 60 degrees and a sunny day, there may be enough temp drop to cause ice to form in the throat of the carburetor, thus you have restricted air flow, engine runs rich as it dies off.  Usually this condition happens when there is visible moisture, like rain, fog, or it feels damp outside and never happens below freezing temps.

In aircraft engines, (one of my trades is A&P, as well as a pilot) there is a "box" that surrounds the intake side of the carb, between the air filter and carb intake, that allows the pilot to select "carb heat". In icing conditions, or when ice can form, a pilot can add carb heat as needed. All or a little. The head is drawn from a shroud around the exhaust pipe.

The down side of adding heat is that as air is "warmed" or heated, it is less dense. This changes the fuel air mixture. More fuel and less air, since hot air expands. That is why carb heat, or warming the intake air is not done as a matter of convenience. Most engines with a top mounted intake generally do not suffer from carb icing because heat from the engine warms the carb and ice crystals pass through without sticking, but in cold weather, and a single carb on an intake pipe isolated from the engine will ice.

So the solution for you guys having this issue to make a sheet metal shroud that you can shift intake air from around the exhaust pipe or maybe catch cooling air from the head and guide it into the intake air stream. You can introduce it before the air cleaner and this will eliminate carb ice.

BTW, air and fuel mixtures are not based on volume....to understand why you don't use heated air all the time is basic. Fuel produces X amount of power based on weight combined with X amount of air, also based on weight. Air density decreases as you increase altitude, and that is why engines develop less power the higher you go, and you have to adjust the air screw mixture or metering when you change elevations...pilots do this on carburetored engines with a mixture control, and fuel injection does this automatically.....that is why this phenomenon is unique only to carburetors.
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Offline joasis

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 08:45:05 AM »
BTW, a winter hood for an engine, containing the heat, and drawing most of the intake air past the warmed engine, will stop the problem.

In below freezing conditions, carb ice isn't a big deal until the air does get warmed, and then you have water vapor freezing in the air stream in the carb. Once you understand what is really going on, then coming up with a fix is pretty easy....after all, we ain't flying a space shuttle here.  ;D

The reason your car or truck has an intake hose drawing cold air from the front of the engine compartment is simple: The colder the air, the more dense, and the more dense, the more weight, and since fuel is actually metered based on  mass air flow, not "air / fuel ratio" as we were taught in the old days, you guys get the picture.  It is old school to describe an air fuel mixture of 15 to 1, or 18 to 1....because the temperature of the air and humidity dictate actual mixture. In piston aircraft, we have a mixture control knob that we set in flight, as conditions change, to get the optimum efficiency. This control simply is a valve that we can use to cut back fuel and make the mixture "perfect" for the power we need.

In general applications, this isn't practical because rarely is anyone using 100% or 95% of the power an engine will produce, and this kind of regulation has been achieved with fuel injection and modern electronics.
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Offline furu

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 10:57:55 AM »
If you had not said what one of your other trades was, it would still have been obvious from your excellent explanation. 
Good job and very clear and concise.
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Offline Ox

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 11:05:57 AM »
Excellent description.  Thanks for your time in typing it up.

For emergencies, I would think you could tape together some sort of box from aluminum flashing or something like that.  Even aluminum foil would work - just something to take heat and direct it towards intake or carburetor itself.

Funnily enough, with all the engines I've used and all the machinery I've ran, I've never once had a carb ice up on me.  Either lucky or God was taking pity on me...
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Offline Kojba

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 11:38:26 AM »
I don't think there are many criminals left in Mexico.  Warm, sunny, some parts I hear aren't bad.  Once they are all in the U.S., it might be time to move.  Just saying,,,
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Offline Ox

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 02:53:58 PM »
I'm not sure about that one, bud. 

I'm not too keen on trying to grow things in sand!

But I hear ya loud and clear...
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
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Offline Stevem

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 07:45:11 PM »
Thanks for the input all.
I'll try and figure out some way to get engine heat to the intake,
Stevem
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Offline Cutting Edge Saw Svc.

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 12:19:15 PM »
Steve,

Without knowing how your air filter is configured, only part of the following may apply.  Honda V-Twins are especially prone to running poorly once temps get close to and below freezing.  Humidity pays a huge part in this, as already mentioned.  If it was snowing or foggy, you HAD to do the following.

Honda actually makes a Kit for Cold Weather operation for their engines, and I would suspect Kohler does also.

I will describe what I did for a Honda (mimics the Honda "Kit" @$120+) - Used for Generators, Air Compressors, etc. operating in northern climates.

 1) - I plugged (2) of the fresh air intake ports for the air filter with pieces of rag.  his forced more warm air to be taken from the engine area.  This left (2) fresh air ports and (4) warm engine ports.  Which still left 3X the cross-sectional area in comparison to the carb inlet.  No negative issues with engine performance.

 2) - Literally took the plastic lid from a coffee container and placed it centered over the fan/flywheel area.  This was 1/2" smaller dia. than factory Honda clip-on... close enuff.  This was literally wired to the protective plastic screen/guard.  This let the engine run a little warmer considering the below freezing temps.

If your air filter is one using a HP canister type, you might make a shield from flashing to direct the warm engine air up to it.  The coffee can lid, piece of paneling, thin ply  is plenty easy enuff to come up with. 

I would personally avoid directing engine exhaust back into carb area... plastic and heat don't like each other.

I wasn't going to give Honda $120+ for a clip-on "lid" and different air filter housing cover that has (2) ports deleted.  Made my own.  This took an engine that needed partial choke to run (poorly) in cold temps, to an engine that ran just as good if it was 80 deg outside... for literally FREE.

Hope this helps you out.


EDIT - Looks like components are different/improved design but increased in price - https://www.brandnewengines.com/06192-zj1-800.aspx
At least the link gives you  visual of what I was trying to describe.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 12:41:32 PM by Cutting Edge Saw Svc. »
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Offline Ox

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 05:13:58 PM »
Damn hillbillies and their countrified ways....

lol

I love free - it's the best price.  And making something from scratch for basically free-ninety-nine as a price with the same performance as at least $150 bill is a no brainer.  Only rich puritans and Honda fan-boys would buy the kit when a half hour of precious time is all it takes.

Thanks for the tips, ya damn hillbilly.  ;)
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Offline joasis

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2018, 08:52:06 AM »
Building a hood over an engine and keeping the intake within the hood will always be workable...short of the far north.

I should have said there is a difference between "warmed" induction air and "heated" induction air. Just warming it like drawing from a tin can wrapped around the exhaust pipe will suffice without killing performance.

But for the curious: When flying a Cessna, for example....a 172 with a 180hp Lycoming engine...as we set up to land, it is part of the check list to ALWAYS add carb heat because, if carb ice forms, you will be on your way down, and when you crash, the ice will have melted and there will be little evidence except weather history to say "conditions" were possible for carb icing. Now, back to the Lycoming....we pull power back to 1800 rpm and add carb heat....the RPM drop is 200 or more....that is how much power you lose by using heated induction air. Franklin engines can drop 300 or more......

Fuel injection and a computer controller is the way to go when practical. No chokes, no ice, no venturis.
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Offline Kojba

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 04:48:08 PM »
And that is why, I don't own an airplane.   :P  With my kind of luck, the damn thing would ice up in July!
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Offline joasis

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2018, 05:52:42 PM »
I have been a pilot for over 40 years, been nearly 20 since I was active, but in nearly 4000 hrs in the air, I have never had carb icing.

I have had it on a farm tractor, and small engines are really prone to it.
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Offline furu

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2018, 05:51:03 AM »
I have had it on both a Cessna 150 and a 172 but it has been a long time since that occurred.
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Offline terracefarmer

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2019, 04:41:02 AM »
Every gas tractor I've ever been around has carb icing issues in cold weather, [up draft carbs hung on the opposite side of the engine from the heat source which is the exhaust manifold] so a heat houser is necessary when it turns cold or if you have a cab on that gas tractor, we always used a sheet of tin to completely cover up the carb to keep it warm off the engine, and another sheet on the other side [exhaust side] to get heat around the engine faster to keep a cold engine running on start up and keep it running.  Either the heat houser or tin stayed on till after field work was done in the spring too to prevent carb icing when doing field work.   

If you into real fun, put a snow blower on a gas tractor and try to keep it from icing up once cold snow covers the hood and engine sides, the cold snow cools everything so fast, cabs ice instantly, then you end up with a plugged snow blower and dead engine in seconds in the middle of nowhere if the wind changes directions too fast when blowing snow, hence the only reason why my dad bought his first diesel tractor way back when.

My 20 hp kohler on my welder generator ices bad in the cold, so we tarp strapped a piece of tin over the exhaust and bent it to aim the heat back at the carb, doesn't take much if you do it before the engine dies, once dead, its either a space heater [plugged into power somewhere besides the dead generator] or piece of flexible pipe off the truck exhaust to melt the ice to get it started again, then install the tin.     

Offline Ox

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 12:20:48 PM »
Welcome to the forum!

Curious as to where you live?  I live in upstate NY, humid most of the time, never had a carb ice up including on old tractors like you mentioned.  Never heard the old timers talking about it.  I'm wondering if it isn't localized for whatever reason, whether it be the weather, elevation, gas available, etc...
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline terracefarmer

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Re: Carburetor icing
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2019, 08:01:08 PM »
I live in northern Iowa.   Cold and snow all winter long, the tractors I grew up with were farmall's, about three M's, a H, 350, 400, IH 656 and John deere 3020's.    All the same issues with carb icing in cold weather, we also have higher humidity compared to some parts of the country.    Thanks for the welcome.