got a question for mill owner/operators

[ESCANABAJOSH]

okay here's my new idea to fund a mill 

i know there is a lot of mill owners around my area and i was thinking if i buy a tooth setter and sharpener i could start fixin up there blades after work and charge??? five, ten ,fiffteen bucks somthing like that and with the profits i could put that all down on a mill! i know i'll have to buy the tools but heck once i get a mill i'm gunna need them anyways.

so my question for you's guys is, how many do there own blades and how many send them out. also is this idea worth checking out ya's think? and what is a good price to charge and finnaly how long does it take to do one blade?

thanks for the help guy's and please tell me you'r opinions on if its a good idea or not.

[John Bartley]

I have a Champion mill and when I bought it I also bought the Champion sharpener. I knew I would be sharpening my own bands, but in the back of my mind was the idea of charging other sawyers to sharpen theirs also. I started advertising about 6 months ago on line here in Ottawa and the results have so far been almost exactly what I expected .... 1)-my price is too high and 2)-most established sawyers already have a system worked out for getting their bands sharpened. My intended course of action??... nothing. I will not work at a loss, or for substandard wages just to bring in work so that I can wear out my equipment and use up my time to keep other sawyers cutting.

When I sharpen, I do the following:
- clean the bands
- check/set every tooth
- sharpen the band following the profile so that I get a full sweeping pass across the entire tooth leaving no part without having been ground gently.
- after finishing my sharpening I clean and oil my equipment

On average, a band takes me 20 minutes. I figured that a decent (almost cheap) rate for an equipped shop is $45/hr. That means I have to charge $15/band. I've heard stories of people getting them done for $7-$10.

This past winter I did some cutting for a friend using his mill and bands. He had his bands sharpened "somewhere" and seemed happy enough with the work....until he used one that I sharpened for him. Now I sharpen his bands. I tried using the bands he had gotten back from his (commercial) sharpener and I was unable to use a few of them (probably 1/3 of them) because they were so poorly set.  I guess you get what you pay for...

Back to your question...I would never discourage anyone from being entrepreneurial - self employment is an addiction that is worth every heartache, but I'm not sure that you will do anything other than finance other sawyers if you try to compete based on price of sharpening alone. I'm pretty sure you won't make any money worth talking about. I'm also pretty sure that the way the big sharpening centres make money is by being automated as much as possible, paying wages as low as possible, and by turning out what is (on average) a usable product.

Also, there is the question of band widths, thicknesses and different profiles. If you're going to compete properly in the sharpening game, you'll have to equip yourself fairly completely and that means a major investment in equipment and grinding materials (stones etc).

I'd think carefully ...

cheers and good luck ... if you go ahead with this, I hope you do well!!

John in Stittsville  (a self employment addict for many years now)

( sorry to be so long winded - what I lack in frequency of posts here I make up for with size )

[Kirk Allen]

Great info John! 

Josh, depending on the sharpener system you can make a go of it but it will be tough initialy.  I say it depends on the sharpener becuse before getting the CBN wheels for my WM sharpener there is no way I would  try to make money at it.  Dressing the old stone and getting the profile just right took time and was only as consistant as my ability to dress the stone, which sucked. 

The CBN wheel never needs dressed and grinds the whole profile at once.  No passing grind like the old system I had.  I can now set one blade on the setter while at the same time one is being sharpened.  I have done about 8 blades in an hour, which could make money.  They key for me was the new CBN system and I would encourage that system to anyone! 

The problem with trying to make money with that system is that the profile of the grinding wheel is only good for WM blades.  That would limit you customer base as there are numerous other blades being used with success.

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Josh, I know you really want to have a mill.  I would strongly suggest that you begin evaluating your possible sources of income.  You might even thnki of an extra job on weekends or earlyevenings for a while to begin building a "mill fund".  Now, I know this is easier said that done, but I have done just that on numberous occassions, when the immediate funds were not available.  You might even look into a small business type loan, business grant funds, small rural community business grant funding programs.  There are even programs available through the farm bills for such things. 

[ESCANABAJOSH]

thanks for all the info guys    john thank you...that was a great reply

frank, i've been thinking about getting a part time at the local oil change place......i was thinking about getting a base model lumbermate 2000....i think they quoted me around 5 grand for the mill with i belive the 23 hp. but i'm working on school right now part time and working full time, the classes i'm taking are a little harder then i was planning so my time is taken up a lot allready.....i did just buy 50 bucks worth of cedar posts ( got i think 67 posts, .75 pc) built a night stand for my cousin and he gave me 50 bucks so now i got 65 to make some beds, figure get 2 beds so thats 400 bucks and i was gunna go buy all the rest of the posts and be able to go from there.....i bought 2 tenon cutters with my tax money.

all in all i know once i'm done with school and start working at my "UNION" job i know i will be able to buy one 

[Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"]

Sounds like you have a plan established, for sure.  Well done.

[ESCANABAJOSH]

well i got out to my parents at a little befor 8 am and "worked" till around 3.  i got 4 logs peeled and cut! it was so nice out today the last thing i wanted to be doing was work! so i'm heading of to go have a picnic and do some fishing with my girlfriend. that sounds much more fun 
i guess that means i gotta work on sunday now 
at this rate i'll never get that mill! 

[ESCANABAJOSH]

here's a pic of me hard at work 

got rained out on the fishing, got stuck doing chores at home.....shoulda kept on them posts!

[Kirk Allen]

Try a high pressure washer to peel off the cedar bark.  Works like a charm and much faster 

[John Bartley]

i'm working on school right now part time and working full time, the classes i'm taking are a little harder then i was planning so my time is taken up a lot allready.

It sounds like you're working pretty hard now. This next bit is going to make me sound like the old fogey I am rapidly becoming If there is one thing other than lots of hard work and ambition to make your path ahead easier, it's finishing school....any school! I know it can be a grind, but speaking from experience, I would strongly encourage you to continue with it (as you seem to be) for as long as possible. Good luck with all your plans!!

cheers eh?

[joasis]

Just as an added thought, I didn't go to college until I was 30......I taught for 5 years and added a M.Ed in that time, before returning to construction.....and I have never regretted the education I have paid for....no matter what it took to get there....

[ESCANABAJOSH]

Try a high pressure washer to peel off the cedar bark.  Works like a charm and much faster 

what size ya think i need? i don't have one but my buddy just got his dad one for fathers day 

[Steve G.]

Josh, I doubt it would hurt to try and see if it works What size does your buddy have?

[Kirk Allen]

It peels off pretty easy and I suspect 1500 would do it but more pressure cant hurt any

[ESCANABAJOSH]

well i talked to him today and his old one is 2200 and the new one is 2400 but he's not wanting to loan em out...what a bud eh!  i'll just have to pick one up....it's one of them or a german peeler?

[Steve G.]

A dog will only make your expenses go up... think food, bowls, leash, fence or kennel, treats, toys, clean up poop, dog hair all over, and alot more. Don't get me wrong I love dogs, I have a yellow lab, i'd just think about the pros and cons

[Kirk Allen]

pressure washer has a lot more uses

[ESCANABAJOSH]

thanks for the advice fella's 

my girlfriends dad has a pressure washer and i'm sure i could use it, so i'm gunna try a small chunk when we go over there again. i hope it works cause man that knife is a lotta work!
i'm getting a lotta respect towards the "old timers" (no offence) and the ways they did things. man i love power tools

as for the blade buisness i'm gunna see my uncle at a grad. party and he owns a W.M. and i know he talks to the other guys in the area so i'm gunna ask him what he thinks....see how many so there own. i know of 3-4 that run the W.M. in my area. seen a circle mill for $3500 but just cant afford it.

[Stevem]

One of the things the "old timers" did to peel poles was harvest the trees in early spring.  When the sap is rising the bark is easier to get off.  It's not tight like the rest of the year. 

My father-in-laws' first job in the woods was to peel the bark off of California red woods, three sides.  The bark can get up to 12".  Reduced shipping weight and size and the mill didn't want it anyway.  They used a 10' or 12' spud, a chisle on a long rod.

[ESCANABAJOSH]

thanks steve.....i'll have to plan a trip up to camp for next spring....now do you have to peel them right away or just harvest them and then peel them whenever?

[Steve G.]

Yeah they say winter cut logs are harder to peel than summer cut - but in return if your building a log cabin winter cut logs are better because they have a special protective layer that the summer cuts don't.

[Stevem]

My understanding is the bark stays loose if cut at the right time.  I've seen it still loose months later, especially because the bugs really like the soft and loose cambian layer. 
Western conifers can be a real hazard for loggers because it peels so well holding the log becomes a problem.   
Don't know that much about hardwoods.  Maybe somebody else can chime in and add some info.

[John Bartley]

The only woods that I have peeled are cedar and poplar (white - not balm). The cedar I was peeling had been cut for a year or so and was sitting outside, so it peeled in long strips very easily. When I peeled the poplar, I was peeling logs to be used for a log building, so I was able to plan for this and I cut the trees in the spring. Almost immediately after felling and bucking to length we set to work peeling them, and as has already been said, because the sap was rising when we cut them, the bark almost peeled like a snake skin - almost no work at all - just wet and stinky. Any logs that were left to dry had the bark stuck to them like it was on with contact cement.

That's my $0.02 worth

cheers eh?

John

[Kirk Allen]

Walnuts and Cottonwoods peel real easy and are a pain in the but as they get very slimy.  I haven't noticed much with any other of the hardwoods.

[ESCANABAJOSH]

well i havent got around to trying the preasure washer yet but i was thinking what do i do about the knots then? would i just use a angle grinder and smothe em down? cause i wouldn't wanna use the knife since there will be no other knife marks on it.