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Author Topic: Primary Causal Agent ?  (Read 23668 times)

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Primary Causal Agent ?
« on: January 29, 2009, 08:54:50 PM »
Armillaria ostoyae  since I know you like pics

Thought I would include this one.

Any of you have others that amaze you or need id.  ???

Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 07:45:24 PM »
so youguys got any idea what tree this crotch is from
it dont smell like oak bark is a little pailer than oak

i never got to see the leaves
i wonder if its box elder but i dont know
white wood for most part
was growing in a creek that is dry most of the year the roots got uncovred in a rain storm
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 08:20:56 PM »
Looks like Oak to me.
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 10:17:40 PM »
By the bark in the 1st pic..........Bur Oak

Do you have any closer pics?  Or pics of the ends?

See your in Missouri........if you can go back to where the tree was harvested you may find some old leaves.  Take a look at this site, for further id.

http://mdc.mo.gov/forest/IandE/oak_hickory/w_oak.htm




Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 07:18:28 AM »
Rest assured its not Box Elder.

If you can enlarge the pics that might help.  If you cant get them sized right email them to me and I will see what I can do.
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Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 07:35:16 PM »
it doesent smell like oak
its lighter than oak
its whiter than any other oak i have sawn
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 09:39:23 PM »
Could be Ash but hard to tell from the bark.
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 12:19:19 AM »
Bark can be deceiving..........i.e.; when I first looked at the first pic my mind said Locust.  Than Cottowood..... than Bur Oak.

Problem remains - a closer view of the wood in order to depict ray cell and axial patterns would help.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 03:17:01 PM »
Mike, See if this link helps any.  Lots of pics to compare.
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/specialcollections/forestry/hough/index.html
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Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 06:32:42 PM »
im not familar with cotton wood its a possible there was some cottonwood here but i was told it was all cut down before we came here in 1987
if it was ash it should of had the worm holes like all the other ash i got
not bur oak as im familuar with that one
this is light weight cotton wood is a good guess maybe?
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 09:18:43 PM »
I would say its not cottonwood based on the grain pattern.  I am banking my money on an oak, but not sure which one but ash is still a possibility.  the worm holes may come later ;D
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 01:11:42 AM »
Bark is similar to Eastern Cottonwood
wood coloration is similar to Cottonwood

Still either need closer pics of wood or possibly leaf material for better ID. Is that possible Mike?
 
http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=pode3_028_avp.tif

Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 08:01:18 AM »
well i got this tree after it fell from storm didnt get to see the leaves & ti was starting to spalt so been down awhile
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Offline Stevem

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 10:50:47 AM »
If it was cotton wood I'd think you could dent it with your finger nail.  Not so with oak.
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 11:41:16 AM »
Burn a piece of it and smell the smoke.  If it smells like urine, its cottonwood :-\
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Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 07:37:52 PM »
i havent tryed that yet
Eagle's Nest Tree farm & Sawmill
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My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from
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   Thomas Jefferson 1802
 No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

   Thomas Jefferson

Offline mike p

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 07:49:07 PM »
a cut of off it
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My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from
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   Thomas Jefferson 1802
 No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 08:22:45 PM »
Ash!
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Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 09:20:35 PM »
Looks like our Ash bark, out here on the Central Left Coast.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 09:18:35 AM »
I would bet dinner on it!  I have cut a boat load of that stuff and its hard!
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 10:15:26 AM »
See bark is NOT always a good identifier........this bark pattern is similar to Ash & White Oak. (definately NOT Bur Oak)

In Ash ray cells are not visible (without use of hand lens) whereas with White Oak they are. Ash & White Oak are very similar in bark appearance; both are ring porous; both are abundant w/tyloses; Oak is slightly harder in density. The distinguishing feature (visibly) to separate the two is larger rays in Oak.

The 1st pic clearly has ray cells visible. = Quercus alba Whlite Oak

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 10:26:30 AM »
I dont know what kind of white oak your talking about on the west coast but the bark on our midwest white oaks are definatly not similar.  Being that he is in MO I will buy your dinner if that is white oak.
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2009, 02:56:46 PM »
The White Oak here is not similar at all.

When I first looked at the above pics my mind said postively Ash.   I am inclined to agree with you on Ash as it looks similar to Ash out here.

I made by above reference from the similarity to the bark pic'd in the Missouri site (White Oak) that I referenced earlier on this thread. 

But ever learning, and not having the advantage of actually seeing.... I researched some of the dendrology sites (for that part of the country) which referenced that Ash and White Oak are often mistaken based upon bark similarities. The appearance of ray cells in the above pic lead me to the conclusion (after I enlarged pic) based upon cell characteristics. 

It is also possible that the sites I visited and have referenced may have wrong pics of these species. 




Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2009, 03:11:38 PM »
One of the dead giveaways for me is the worm holes in the sap wood.  White oak rarely has that around here.  Ash has it in less than 6 months of being on the ground. 
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2009, 10:10:52 AM »
Many borers & sawflies do attack, Ash.

Taking into account the incipient staining, length of time this piece is down.

ASH Fraxinus spp.


Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2009, 11:42:32 AM »
Stephen, what is a sawflie?  I have not heard that term before.  Is that similar to a Powder Post beatle?
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2009, 01:54:26 PM »
No, powder post attack downed wood and are eating and nesting in the wood.

Sawflies are one of the many insects that are generally eat foliage (can totally defoliate or skelontize) . They go through several stages of growth and some of them will bore into the trunk, branches. These boring sites can look like bark borer damage.

Here is a site showing the Oak Shoot Sawfly which is known to bore.

http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/detail.cfm?imgnum=3066095


Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2009, 03:48:25 PM »
Wow :o  I've never seen anything like that around here.  Are they common throughout the US?
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2009, 11:03:52 PM »
Kirk, this will be a long response.  I am not certain if all 50 states have sawflies. Some sawflies have been imported and have overtaken from the east coast along the northern & central states to the Pacific. Many sawfly adults are not often observed.  A tree being defoliated by the worm/caterpillar larvae may be found by a forester/arborist. Simply put many people do not notice tree health impacts up close, until the tree is dead or in serious decline.

Taken from USDA Report 1998 more recent surveys encompass Illinois counties.

Scarlet oak sawfly, Caliroa quercuscoccineae

Region 9/Northeastern Area: Ohio, West Virginia
Hosts: Black oak, pin oak, red oak, scarlet oak, white oak
The scarlet oak sawfly infestation contined for the second year in southeast Ohio and southwest West Virginia. An area encompassing 217,635 acres was defoliated on the Wayne National Forest in Ohio, and an addtional 76,791 acres was defoliated on adjacent and surrounding private lands. In West Virginia, 185,638 acres was defoliated in Mason, Cabell, Putnam, and Wayne Counties. This area also experienced heavy locust leafminer damage.

Another site showing geographical saturation by the Scarlet Oak Sawfly.   

http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilquepal.htm

European Sawfly site for Illinois   

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/bugreview/europeanpinesawfly.html

USDA Pest Alert:

http://na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/pest_al/sawfly/sawfly.htm



Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2009, 08:12:27 AM »
Great info!  Thanks for the links!  :)
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Primary Causal Agent ?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2009, 08:41:45 PM »
 ;) ;D