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Author Topic: Big white Oak  (Read 49514 times)

Offline locvetter

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Big white Oak
« on: March 10, 2009, 08:16:52 PM »
I'm new to the group - referred by the nice people at Lumberjock blog.  I have a huge White Oak - 75' drip line, 176" circumference at three feet above grade.  Estimated 325 to 400 years old.  It was a big reason I bought my home.  In the Dec 21 ice storm lost several major branches and I am told for safety I should take it down.

I'd like to preserve both rounds and perhaps some qs slabs.  Of all the rounds I have seen in museums -- all were badly checked.  Is it possible to preserve slabs of this heritage oak?  Does someone in Oregon know how.  Could I do it?

Thanks so much.

Loc

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 08:25:40 PM »
We have several great folks from Oregon that I am sure could offer you some great advice!  One just happens to have purchased a slabber at the last conferance who might be interested in slabing some stuff out of that monster.

Welcome to the forum and if you got any pics we always appreciate pics.

Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 11:30:03 PM »
locvetter, welcome a board.  Whereabouts are you located with that BIG  Oak.  We might be asble to help you.  I am in the Dallas area, West of Salem about 15 miles.

The first thing you do when you cut the rounds is cover each side with a sealer.  I get mine form some folks in Johnson City, near Portland.  The material is designed for sealing log ends and slowing the drying down and help cut down on checking.  The "cookie" will still split, but perhaps not as bad and quickly.  There are some ways to deal with the material after the checking has stopped or come to a very slow process of drying.

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 01:35:09 AM »
Not all storm damage loss of laterals requires loss of the tree.  Have you taken the tree down?

When ever there is storm damage to trees, many fly-by night tree services (opportunists) proceed with all kinds of ill advise.  Even many certified arborists have not had enough experience or knowledge to ascertain structural preservation of the tree.

Loss of a major leader may only cause superficial damage to trunk. Although unsightly and alarming to the untrained eye often the remaining portion of the tree is structuraly sound and will provide many more years of benefits.

Do not loose your property aesthetic and landscape value over one opinion.

If the tree is structurally unsound than there will obvious reasons as to why i.e.; presence of a heart rot or sap rot. Which would degrade the value for lumber purposes.

A hazard tree can be rated by a qualified arborist / forester. If the damage is severe. Do not hesitate to remove the tree.

Slabbing requires a large saw or large width band mill. Since your Oak has a diameter of 4' 8" it would best be done by a slabber with a minimum 6' bar. The slabbers that Frank and Steve M. have are designed to minimize the sway of a bar that size and provide the extra lubrication needed in performing this kind of cutting.





Offline locvetter

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 10:58:23 PM »
If you are right there in Silverton, I could come get you and bring you over to look and then drive you home -- I'm just north of Turner.  This tree might be on the bubble in term of need to take down the rest.  I must say that I factor in the fact that I have two young kids -- one of which was swinging on a limb that came down just two hours before in happened.  Also - the tree is now so unsightly compared to before - that I think I'd rather have he acre of land than the tree.  The scar from one branch break is about 3' x 6' -- that is a big chunk of trunk scar.

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 09:25:24 AM »
Loc,

Currently there are two Oregon White Oaks here in Silverton that have had storm damage loss of laterals and leaders. One was damaged this winter the other ten years ago. Both have trunk scars as large as yours. Even though the scars are unsightly they do not have a great impact upon the remaining structure of the tree.

However, 'kids' are by far more valuable than a damaged Oak. Aesthetics are also a great value. I am by occupation a consulting arborist/forester. I make every effort to give people 'facts' concerning the physical structural stability and safe uselful life expectency of their trees; in order that they can make an informed decision.


Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 10:41:55 AM »
Now, Stepehn, look there, who said their is no free ride?  Looks like you got one to and from Turner. ;D

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 12:08:30 AM »
Frank, I will be in Turner tommorrow.......got a log arch for lease?

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 09:39:32 PM »
I wish I had some arches out here.  I sold all I had in stock.  Sorry.  Do you want me to order an arch?  A TA030 runs right at $2700, plus shipping.   That hurts, even thinking about the idea.

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 05:07:18 PM »
Visited Mr. Vetter's place to observe this Oregon White Oak.

The wound was created by the loss of one leader. Even though the trunk capacity is large enough to support the remaining canopy; other visual obvious structural failure potentials were evident, i.e. trunk wood is severely twisted leading to weaker elongated cells (which will make interesting craft wood); parasitic misletoe swellings were noted throughout canopy / trunk; incipient staining in failed branch wood indicated heart rot. Further failure of this tree is eminent, due to its location and the target activity below its canopy the tree is a loss. Calculated age 400 years.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 06:58:21 PM »
Thats a terrible loss.  I bet when that three is leafed out its beutiful.  Heck, its beutiful now  :o
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 10:45:52 PM »
Is there any danger of the tree injuring life or buildings; if not, I would vote to let it stand as long as it wants.  The location and twisting of the main bole, tells me that it has had to withstand lots of winds over the years.

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 10:07:30 AM »
'Danger' yes, as I stated above there is activity below its canopy from kids playing. Not in the pics above to the east is a building down grade which could also be impacted upon canopy failure.

Wind has given the tree character, but disease influence coming from a nearby Oak is invading this tree.

The tree has some structural 'back breaks' and additional weakly attached laterals. Other signs of brash wood breakage in this tree and a nearby Oak are visible.






Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 11:17:56 AM »
Another consideration is the land owner is going to place a pole building just to the side of the tree.  The building is to replace a wind damaged one from the last big storm.
Stevem
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Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 06:41:43 PM »
Watch for nails, when sawing, Steve.  Good luck on that monster. ;D

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 08:45:49 PM »
Oh, I'll watch but what I generally see is the carbid fly right after I hear zing.

I'm hoping there won't be any but have given the owner a heads up about blade charges just in case.
Stevem
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2009, 11:06:39 PM »
Well................Loc's contractor (John) used his excavator to dig around and cut roots to fall this Oak. Steve M. and I ended up there tonight where I bucked the log to smaller pieces.

Steve will be milling tomorrow.

In the pics......John is in bobcat......Loc is standing and walking next to log....I am in the tin cap... with saw. Somehow Steve M did not get a pic....sneaky guy :laugh:

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2009, 11:08:17 PM »
 8)

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2009, 11:09:27 PM »
Camera batteries died....... >:(

Will try to get pics from Loc to show you guys of logs.

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2009, 02:24:49 AM »

Good looking hat, Steve. ;D

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2009, 11:03:20 AM »
We buck a 14 foot piece out of the trunk,t 52" on the big end, about 48 on the scale end.  Gross scale is about 1500 bdf.   I will cut boards out of the top half and then slab throught the center. Might or might not shift back to boards for the bottom.  Steve bar in pictures is 52" and it just barley reach through where he cut it off the stump.  Looks like there is some spalting on the out side edges which I'll try and save in boards
Also saved out a 5 foot piece that has about 4 crotches that I figure I'll just slab.  Gonna be some real pretty wood.

No metal in the wood so far except the two 6 penny spikes we found sticking out of the bottom portion.  Might have hit  a nail last night I'll find out today.  Rain started and I left before the last cookie was cut.  Tree is about 200 years old

We (Steve W) cut of the big burl on the side off since the owner has a lathe (and a wood shop to kill for) but it was hollow with rot.  Just have to wash it off and you've got a bowl, no truning needed.

Frank,  you want the stump for burl wood?  Just have to figure out how to load it.   



 
Stevem
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Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2009, 11:09:25 AM »
Steve Wiley said something about the fella with a track hoe loading and possibly hauling here.  Steve W. said he would look into the whole matter.  Careful of the slabbing in the crotch area.  Remember, that wood really likes to show its stuff with stress areas and crotches are a favorite place for demonstrating its strength. ;D
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:16:34 PM by Frank Pender »

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 10:17:51 PM »
Latest on stump is: it is to big to move......
Loc would like to donate it to school to illustrate 'size' a two hundred plus tree can grow beneath soil surface.

Unfortunately, may have to split in pieces in order to get it out of excavated site.

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 11:19:52 PM »
He can't put it on his equipment trailer?   :'( :'( :'(

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 05:02:08 PM »
Might put half of it on the trailer.  How do you get half?  Really limited access and small bobcat size equipment trailer.  And bobcat just barley lifts one end.
I should be slabbing tomorrow.

Steve m
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 06:54:26 PM »
WOW :o

That is a whopper of a tree! 
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching!

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2009, 10:09:53 AM »
Let us know how many nails and bullets you hit, SteveM

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2009, 11:00:21 PM »
Well back at it today..........Loc, called the other night to discuss 'the stump' asked if I could reduce some more cookies.
Arrived and found Steve M setting up for the day's milling.  Since I had not taken the time to examine the stump closely the other day .....I did so today :o

Root rotting disease known as Armillaria spp. aka 'Shoestring Root Rot' was visible by the mass of mycellium and rhizomorphs present.

In addition upon closer examination through hand digging 'stuck' clay soils from trunk exposed numerous boulders, rocks....preventing further bucking.

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 11:12:17 PM »
Frank,  you do not want this stump........not with Armillaria present. Oh and since you wanted to know about bullets......... yep Steve M. found them. We also found some serious staining on the butt end; to which Steve M. got outta his 'detector'....guess what?..... I bucked the end of the log to avoid ....chingggggggggggggg.......... :laugh:

Unfortunately it rocked my blade.

John the contractor, showed up later in the afternoon and with his Bobcat we managed to break the stump into submission to move to end of project.

Now in the last pic Steve M. is happy for more than one reason:...............should I let him you tell you why?

Nah..........the neighbor offered several Black Walnuts to him for cutting ;D

Loc, arrived late afternoon having tackled some hard problems himself at work.  Steve is done milling.....Stump done.... now Loc can seal project wood and upon drying maybe show us some handiwork.

Steve's smile says it all................

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 11:15:24 PM »
BTW, Kirk

How do you like the muck on Steve's boots..............at one point today I sunk four inches above my knee and took considerable effort to avoid be hit by the Bobcat (John did not realize I was stuck).

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2009, 01:14:44 AM »
Slabber works ok too.  But had a thought as I finished the first one as it was 2 3/4" thick, 48" wide and 14 1/2' long. what are you going to do now?  Had some help but we cut it in half and put it on top of the cookies in the trailer.  the slabber is slow though. 
Got lucky on nails.  I saw the black stains before I sawed them.  Mostly chain sawed them out, cut one in half with the chain saw though.  Those two were about 20p.  The stain SteveW cut out of the butt squeaked twice within 6" on the metal detector,  Big stain, now fire wood.

The walnuts are right on a paved road with one having a branch overhanging the pavement and another tangled with the tree next to it.  Behind the trees grass seed field just starting to lush up.  The biggest of the three is about 36" a foot above the stump.  One of them splits into two trunks about 6' up Nice slabs.  One just an ordinary tree about 24" dbh.   All of them are about 120' tall.
Stevem
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Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2009, 09:09:48 AM »
120' feet tall?   :o 

You guys are spoiled out in the northwest.  I cant imagine a 120' walnut.  We get 36" diameter but 60' would be the tallest I have seen.
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Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2009, 10:02:33 AM »
Well maybe only 100'. 

I have a strange way to estimate lengths.  I envision box car lengths.  A box car is (to me) 50' long, thus the measurement is one, two, or three box car length.  Standing box cars on end might be a little iffy, not their normal position.

Stevem
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Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2009, 10:18:54 AM »
Yes, Black Walnuts in Oregon can reach heights above 100 feet.........I have climbed them ;D

Loc, sent me pics he took and wanted to share.

The excavator operator in the process of digging to 'fell' tree became focused on the roots and not upon the tree; Loc had to yell at the top of his voice.....in order to get the operator to move the trackhoe from out of the fall of the Oak. Note how close the tree came ::)


Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2009, 10:24:01 AM »
additional pics from Loc:

1. Excavator operator
2. Downed Tree
3. Steve W.
4. Steve M. and Steve W.
5. Steve W.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2009, 12:18:25 PM »
That is one lucky back hoe operator.  I have seen two smashed and killed operators in my day and its not pretty.  Both were from very large pin oaks that squashed them in the cab.  :(
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Offline locvetter

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2009, 03:12:33 PM »
I gotta add a comment since it was my tree and I started this thread.  What a wonderful experience this has been. This forum found me Steve Wiley and Steve M.  Both brought great though dissimilar expertise to the project.  The very tense/positive feeling when the tree missed the excavator, Cory, added to the positivity of the experience.

Making cookies nice and flat with parallel sides was cake for Steve M.

Need more advise, if possible:  Current plan: Soak the Cookies in PEG solution, made from the powder PEG purchased from Rockler.  Plan to make a bath using pond liner and let them soak for a couple of months in a 30% solution.  Does that make sense?

On the miriad boards and slabs: plan to seal the ends with wax type sealer and sticker-stack -store in barn.  Does that make sense?


Thanks Sawmill and Timber for making this project such fun.

Offline julian the woodnut

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2009, 03:35:48 PM »
Wow. This thread has been quite entertaining. It looks like you'll have a lifetime supply of oak now!

I am glad I referred you to this forum, and it worked out so well for you.

Offline Kirk Allen

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2009, 06:19:51 PM »
I would think you could coat the cookies with the wax sealer on both sides and that will slow the drying down quite a bit.  Not familiar with PEG solution.  Is it an alcohol based solution? 

On the slabs, i would put a coat of wax sealer on the surface as well as the ends.  Thick slabs tend to surface check over time more so than standard 4/4 boards.
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Offline locvetter

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2009, 06:48:52 PM »
Indeed - thank you Julian the woodnut - for refering me here.  Not that the lumberjocks aren't nice - but this is where I found help --


So- Please - It is now suggested that I use my wax based sealer on surfaces and ends -- but how do I get the stuff off?  I have used this wax on bowls for some time - but there you are turning it off after the blanks have aged.  SteveM made such nice smooth surfaces that I'll just need to surface prep the final product -- and don't want to have to deal with a bunch of wax.

What say you???

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2009, 07:14:19 PM »
A nice damp cloth, Loc, will do the trick, for removal.

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »
Loc, your welcome.  So nice to have satisfied customers.  Your thanks here makes my day.  You've taken on a large project.  It might be my imagination but I do believe that is the hardest oak wood I've ever cut.  Might be because of the high ring count.  Good luck.

I might suggest a small fan to blow through the stack of wood as it drys until at least the humidity gets down.  It needs air circulation.  Mold can be a problem and this time of year is prime time for such.

Just for reference a 1" x 8" red oak sells at Lowes for $6.25 per board foot ($6250/thousand) and may be two boards glued together to make the one.  White oak is more expensive but they don't carry it

Kirk, PEG (Poly Ethylene Glycol) is akin to antifreeze which is akin to sugar.  Actually displaces the cellular water.  Mostly used for speciality items like small turning wood to prevent cracking.  Should work in this case but no guarantees.  Good stuff but spendy.
Stevem
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Offline Gilman

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2009, 01:29:43 PM »
I've used PEG with good results, no cracking.  I just followed the directions, don't remember if it was a 30% solution.

Offline julian the woodnut

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2009, 02:57:41 PM »
So how many boardfeet did you get from that monster?

Offline Stevem

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2009, 01:54:06 AM »
Really hard to say.  I contracted the job based on gross log scale.  This was the first time I'd used my slabber and had no idea of time verses recovery, so did it that way to be as fair as I could.

The log scaled at around 1400 feet but half way down we cut off 2 feet to get rid of metal which lost about 100 ft of scale.  I probably left another 100 feet in the bottom slab because of the rush the contractor was in to get me gone.

Also the first half of the log the customer wanted "thick" 4/4 so I cut it 1/8 oversize.  Changed his mind for the bottom half after he saw the thickness

Also cut the center of the log as slabs which increases yield.  Over all very little waste.  My SWAG would be about 1100-1200 feet of finished product.
Stevem
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Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2009, 10:10:18 AM »
Well, I too get to meet Loc, this weekend.  He and his family are comeing here for a visit.


I got off the cell line with Loc an hour ago and he is planning on being here with the family asbout 2ish, I guess, and it is not even the weekend.

We have had snow, sun hail an heavy rain, thus far this morning. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 02:40:46 PM by Frank Pender »

Offline Stephen Wiley

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2009, 09:13:40 PM »
Frank, make certain to give his kids the 'full story' and show 'road' details of how you met Alice; proposed; married; etc. Although they're young ........will probably make a lasting impression.

Don't forget to show your wood shop for sale (just in case you get busy).

Have fun

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2009, 11:11:03 PM »
I did all of those things, plus.  While we were discussing the Logosol, the kids found as small mudddddy puddle out front of the large building opening and boy did they have fun.  Amy (mom) said she was glad they brought Loc's vehicle and not her jeep.

I did tell the story of how I got the tree farm and Alice.  They all seemed to enjoy my remdition.

Offline Ted79

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2009, 08:09:55 AM »
Hello! I helped a friend of mine do some storm damage a few weeks ago. a white oak uprooted and smasked a brand new bmw. (quite funny really) i took a few 8" slabs of it to make something out of it. im thinking a clock, some boards to put my deer mounts on, or have my company name milled into it to put on my front porch, etc. my question is, should i have it cut to size before it dries, or let it dry as it is, then have it cut to size? i did a rough count on the rings, the saw marks made it kinda tough to count the really small ones, but i got 220+ years old. its a shame that they are going to use it for firewood. that really erks me.

Offline Frank Pender - AKA "Tail Gunner"

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Re: Big white Oak
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2009, 09:13:51 PM »
Ted, my suggestion is to not make any kind of finished cutting or sizing until the wood is completely dry.